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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Evidence to state that Moses wrote the Torah

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deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Evidence to state that Moses wrote the Torah

I have been trying to find evidence against the Documentary Hypothesis
I have been arguing with a friend called Nick in Costa Coffee
He has been listening to the
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-1
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalTJzk4kO0
Pray that I can find evidence against the Documentary Hypothesis
I have found
https://itunesu.itunes.apple.com/feed/id430337717
If you have any more evidence that Moses wrote the Torah

The reason that this is important as it affects all doctrines such as the Historicity of Adam, Doctrine of Original Sin and other Doctrines as the scriptures state if you take away the foundations what do you have.


I believe 100 Percent that Moses wrote the Torah but I do not believe he wrote say the story about his death.


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2015/12/9 6:45Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Evidence to state that Moses wrote the Torah


Pray for the man! Ask him what is pressing in his life and then pray for him right there at the argument table and believe God to answer.

Words never convert anyone, imho. When they witness something that God did in their life they cannot explain or argue away, therein starts the crack in their foundation!! :)

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/12/9 9:05Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re: Evidence to state that Moses wrote the Torah

Internally to the Torah itself, the evidence is not explicit. Moses never, for example, takes credit for it and no one ascribes the actual "writing" of the Torah to him. Yet, Exodus 17:14 at least implies a book that Moses was writing at God's direction.

But, the bible beyond the Torah is consistent in its entire witness that the Law (which is in the Torah) was given to Moses by God. 2 Chronicles 35:12 refers to the "book of Moses" as does Ezra 6:18 and Nehemiah 13:1. It refers to the Torah.

Jesus also credited Moses with it in John 5:45-47. That's a pretty good endorsement. :)


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Tim

 2015/12/9 9:15Profile









 Re:

The fact that Jesus refers to the "book of Moses" is enough for me. He would not refer to mythology.

"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" (Mark 12:26)

I guess this begs the question, "What does your friend think of Jesus Christ". It seems to always come down to what one's thoughts about Christ, are.

 2015/12/9 9:32
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

It is not that I believe that Moses wrote the Torah but it is convincing my friend, he is actually going out with a jewish girlfriend and he is catholic.
He gave me the documentary from PBS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalTJzk4kO0
and I am trying to refute it as it has some scholars and archaeologists
I am really looking for evidence around the time

I know Jesus says it but that still does not convince him I have been debating with him for weeks.

he also believes in the Jesus seminar aswell and John Dominic Crossan and Evolution
Doctrines such as Evolution you can believe in and that there is no original sin or no historical adam if the documenary hypothesis are true.

In the scholarly circles it is a popular view that I am completly against. I think RTS and probably something like DTS.

All I have been praying that God can open his eyes and that he can get truly saved but I want to give him evidence to the contrary aswell. As he would simply state my faith is just based on tradition and not on evidence.


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Dominic Shiells

 2015/12/9 11:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
All I have been praying that God can open his eyes and that he can get truly saved...



That is what is going to work. And Lysa said it very well, too.

He needs revelation more than cerebral evidence. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying your spinning your wheels, because I am not at all intimate with your situation. I am just speaking in a general manner. Have you also explained the Gospel to him?

I once witnessed to someone and a Catholic was listening in on my conversation with this other person and got saved. The person I was talking to, did not get saved at that time. So, what I presented to one person resulted in no fruit (at that time, who knows it may have been a seed) yet someone else overhearing our conversation got genuinely saved.

Remember, your friend is communicating to you that "evidence' from a debate is what he needs, but I bet he needs something deeper and less obvious to you. He will probably get saved from something totally different than the right "evidence" being given to him.

I pray the Lord gives you the gift of discernment and knowledge in dealing with him.

 2015/12/9 12:07
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Dom, my friend and brother, your goal is noble. You want your friend to see the light of Jesus and believe and live for Him.

Jesus, who credited the work to Moses, said, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.” Luke 16:31.

In other words, your friend has marshaled his arguments against the truthfulness and validity of Scripture. He won't hear the Law and the Prophets. Jesus arose from the dead; he won't be convinced about Jesus, either -- at least not from argument about the authenticity of manuscripts, etc.

It may be that --- even unwittingly --- he wants to spoil you more than he is interested in hearing truth. Julius is spot on. The issue is not "who wrote the Torah?" The issue is "Who is Jesus and what will you do about Him?"

The simple, straightforward truth is that he has gone to great effort to discredit a faith that he already rejects! What for? Is he soothing his conscience, perhaps? Hasn't Paul written:

Quote:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.



He is suppressing the truth, not denying it. He is patching over the work of the Law in his heart with "wisdom" and a "glory" of "mortal man". Why? Because God has made Himself plain already. What power is there against such a man? Paul said it in verse 16:

Quote:
I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”



Brother, my prayer is that you will shift gears on him. Honest intellectual inquiry and debate about the sources of our scriptures is fine. But, it doesn't convert dead men into live ones. The only power for your friend is the power of the gospel. Only through believing Jesus does "He [give] power to become the sons of God"

Long ago, while not dismissing my curiosity about the history of the Bible and while actually feeding into it, I came to the conclusion that I believe the Bible because what it says about ME is correct: All have sinned; the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked; I lived in the passions of my flesh, carrying out the desires of my body and mind. This book that never met me pegged me. This book that never read my mind and heart nonetheless described me perfectly. Only God can do that. No man has ever passed from death to life by believing and following anyone other than Jesus Christ. There is no other name given under heaven among men by which we must be saved.

Stick to his issues with Jesus and let the Holy Spirit do the convincing within him. Pray, fast, call out his name to God for a heart of faith.



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Tim

 2015/12/9 12:09Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I so do, I talked to him via email
I so want God to open his eyes to the gospel but I also want to provide answers to his questions

I am struggling at the moment I have to get an assignment in as it is just not working


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Dominic Shiells

 2015/12/9 14:17Profile









 Re:

I don't know.

 2015/12/10 6:34
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Why do you need to provide answers to his questions? If his inquiry is serious he can easily find answers on the www.

Someone below wrote that his goal is to cast doubt on your mind, not an answer to his questions. I wholeheartedly agree.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.


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Todd

 2015/12/10 8:31Profile





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