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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the Church Israel?

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2021
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

yuehan wrote:

Quote:
This topic has been bouncing around for weeks now, and I'm not sure if further discussion would change anyone's mind. However, here's my take:

1. The meaning of Israel throughout the Bible depends on the context, and can possibly take on multiple meanings in the same verse (one good example of multiple meanings would be Matt 2:15 - "Out of Egypt, I called My Son").

2. On Romans 9:6-8 - "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

Paul is effectively saying, "They are not all of true spiritual Israel, who are of ethnic physical Israel"; "Nor are they all true children of Abraham, because they are the physical descendants of Abraham."

So the context of Romans 9:6-8 makes it clear that the church - the body of all believers - can be referred to as Israel.


Amen. I want to hone in on that first example because I think it’s a very important point.
Matthew 2:15 is a quotation of Hosea 11:1. Here is the verse there in Hosea:
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.”
Notice also Isaiah 49:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:
"And He said to me, 'You are My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.”

Ultimately, our Lord Jesus Christ is the True Israel. It’s all about Him. It all points to Him. He is the Ultimate Fulfillment. We need not look for any other. His kingdom is not of this world. If it were so His servants would fight physically for it at His biding.

Why should we not be content with Jesus and His kingdom made up of Jew and Gentile? Isn’t Jesus enough? Why should we demand an earthly piece of land in the Middle East when all the Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles were not looking for such a land but for a better country?

Sadly, it seems that many diminish all that our Lord has already accomplished in the New Covenant. As if Jesus is not sufficient. They say in effect, “No, we want an earthly kingdom, an earthly land with earthly wealth.” But that’s what many in the time of Christ were guilty of, including the Apostles. We see that they were so preoccupied with such an idea of an earthly kingdom during that time. Many were so preoccupied with that idea that they cried out, “Crucify Him, crucify Him” when they saw that our Lord did not come to set up such a kingdom. They could not imagine a spiritual kingdom. Even in Acts 1 (before the Holy Ghost came upon them) they still didn’t get it. It took the power of the Spirit to fall upon them mightily to get them over that preoccupation with an earthly kingdom.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/24 17:36Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2021
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Neil wrote:

Quote:
this is a full fledged outright demonic attack on SI.

hey Oracio, you wouldn't be street preaching with Rueben and BroJed Jesse Morrel out there in south central and LA?

you a pelagian?


No sir, I do not approve of their tactics. I lean more toward Calvinism but that's neither here nor there.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/24 17:38Profile









 brother Oracio

than may God bless your Words of Life on the streets of LA.

(I was ministering to the white creek homeless and Latino day laborer;s in Topanga Cyn from 2002-2005,

May God bless your efforts, neil

 2015/11/24 17:51









 Re:

Quote:
by Oracio on 2015/11/24 17:
Ultimately, our Lord Jesus Christ is the True Israel. It’s all about Him. It all points to Him. He is the Ultimate Fulfillment. We need not look for any other. His kingdom is not of this world. If it were so His servants would fight physically for it by His biding.

Why should we not be content with Jesus and His kingdom made up of Jew and Gentile? Isn’t Jesus enough? Why should we demand an earthly piece of land in the Middle East when all the Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles were not looking for such a land but for a better country?

Sadly, it seems that many diminish all that our Lord has already accomplished in the New Covenant. As if Jesus is not sufficient. They say in effect, “No, we want an earthly kingdom, an earthly land with earthly wealth.” But that’s what many in the time of Christ were guilty of, including the Apostles. We see that they were so preoccupied with such an idea of an earthly kingdom during that time. Many were so preoccupied with that idea that they cried out, “Crucify Him, crucify Him” when they saw that our Lord did not come to set up such a kingdom. They could not imagine a spiritual kingdom. Even in Acts 1 (before the Holy Ghost came upon them) they still didn’t get it. It took the power of the Spirit to fall upon them mightily to get them over that preoccupation with an earthly kingdom.



Best post all day!!!

Jesus is the True Israel of God and we are in Him.

It's all about Him.

 2015/11/24 17:53
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Oracio,

I did not mean to offend you. I did not write in a harsh spirit. I put a smiley on there to show I was making my point with a smile. Biut I can see that it could have been taken the wrong way, so sorry about that.

Regarding your last post, I think you misjudge motives. It is not anyone wanting something other than Christ. I'm not a Jew, so it won't affect me. I just want to be true to scripture and God's heart for the seed of Jacob. I know to God Israel is the apple of His eye and as a a non Jew that does not offend me or make me feel inferior. I have been blessed far more abundantly than I will ever deserve. My God is big enough to bless His church with every spiritual blessing and also keep His covenant with Jacob. His is not limited brother.

God bless. I know we disagree on this, but I do know you have a heart
for serving the Lord.


_________________
Dave

 2015/11/24 18:07Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2021
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks Heydave, I too did not mean to offend you and I know that my post about “teachers” could have come across as offensive.

Also, regarding my last post here, I know it can also come across as offensive but that was not my intention. I think I got a bit more “pumped up” than I’ve been lately in these discussions.

I think I probably need to chill out a bit here before I get all caught up in the flesh. God bless brother.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/24 18:22Profile









 Re:

Well, it seems we all just need to agree to disagree without being disagreeable and be at peace. Glad to see you two are good with each other.

 2015/11/24 18:27









 Re:

?

 2015/11/24 18:27
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2021
Whittier CA USA

 Re: brother Neil

Neil, thanks for that encouragement brother. I think I personally need to get back to focusing more on certain other things before I get too distracted. God bless you too.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/24 18:30Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2021
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks Julius. Though I do believe and hope that that post was by the leading of the Lord, I know it's easy to cross the line sometimes.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/24 18:34Profile





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