SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Is National Israel God’s Chosen And Holy Nation?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Docs wrote:

Quote:
What about versesin Ezekiel and elsewhere?

23 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:23-28)

Upon the return from Babylon, when did the people who returned have the Spirit placed within them (Exekiel 36:27)? The indwelling Spirit is a sign of the New Covenant being in effect and receiving the Spirt within only comes about through faith in Christ. So there is a future day prophesied when Israel will be returned from the nations and have the Spirit of God and Christ placed within them.


docs, I wouldn’t mind answering your questions regarding those other prophecies, but I want to ask you this first; would you agree that notdarkyet took those verses in Jeremiah 32 out of context and misapplied and misinterpreted them? I think it’s clear that he did, and I’m afraid to say it seems he did it purposely because the verses right before the ones he posted show clearly that their referring to the return from Babylonian captivity.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/23 13:06Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Actually docs, on second thought, you don’t have to answer that question because I think you did concede that I brought up a good point regarding Jeremiah 32. I’ll work on providing a reply to your question/s.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/23 13:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Doc: Absolutely yes to all of those. Pre-mill believers do not deny this. It's a wrong premise to assume that if one believes that national Israel has a future as a godly and redeemed nation that the above is not true. When they become part of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL/TRUE ISRAEL by faith thier destiny will be a living demonstration that the above is true. The addtion of the Gentiles (Ephe 3:6 did nothing to change this.



Thank you for climbing out on a limb and acknowledging who True Israel is.

Quote:
The thought seems to be that the addition of the Gentiles somehow brough about the spiritulization and even nullification of original promises made to Abraham (Gen 15:6-21). Verse 6 - Abraham believed God and it was reckined to him as righteousnmess. When Isarel believes God and Christ at the set time it will be reckoned to thenm as righteousness and the inward presence and righteousness of the Holy Spirit will make them morally able to not only possess the land but to keep the land. In no way will that nullilfy or marginalize the universal concept of Romans 4:13.



The physical land won't be important once they are in Christ as like Abraham they will be looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. They will realize that the battle is not for countries down on earth as God has in store for His Church a "better country". After they come into Christ they will realize there is no need to fight for countries down here.

So, all the promises to Abraham are indeed fulfilled in Christ.

God gave Israel land in the Old Testament stipulated on obedience. Christ does not give His Church, where there is no longer JEW nor Gentile, land on earth stipulated on obedience. We are pilgrims and sojourners on earth.

We have the testimony of the apostles (actually, the lack of testimony), in the New Testament, where they spent no time on physical Israel with the exception of Paul's writings in Romans 9-11. And of course Galatians where Paul likens all those not in Christ to the offspring of Hagar.

The Word says-"They that be of faith are blessed with Abraham". So this is now for anyone that is of faith, meaning faith in Christ.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

The blessing of Abraham comes on all those who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile. Those who are not in Christ, Jew and Gentile, are not blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:14

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The promises were made to Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ's

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So, the uncircumcized of heart, do not receive the promises that you and I have received in Christ.

Think about this: there is no JEW or Gentile in Christ. Does land in this world mean anything to you or I? I can answer no. Absolutely not! What about you? I am looking, as Abraham was, for a City whose builder and Maker is God, the New Jerusalem.

The worst fruit that has developed in looking to national Israel, is horrible division. We can't reach Galatians 3:26-28 until the Church understands Galatians 3&4 and that the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ as Galatians reached.

Galatians 3:26-28
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This is a big reason why Christ is a stumbling stone to the Jew.

Notice that Paul, Peter, John, James, Luke, Timothy, and Jude do not talk about national Israel as it is talked about today. The early church did not seem to have this teaching.

 2015/11/23 13:29
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

docs:

Quote:
What about verses in Ezekiel and elsewhere?

23 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:23-28)

Upon the return from Babylon, when did the people who returned have the Spirit placed within them (Exekiel 36:27)? The indwelling Spirit is a sign of the New Covenant being in effect and receiving the Spirt within only comes about through faith in Christ. So there is a future day prophesied when Israel will be returned from the nations and have the Spirit of God and Christ placed within them.



Okay, let’s deal with those verses in Ezekiel 36. As we saw with Jeremiah 33, Ezek. 36 contains promises of both physical and spiritual blessing, promises of a physical restoration of national Israel after the 70 years of captivity (which also involved spiritual blessings for God's remnant people during that time), and promises of spiritual blessings in Christ during the New Covenant. And some of these seem to be intertwined within the same verses. That should not surprise us because we see in the New Testament a plethora of examples of how the Apostles interpreted and applied many Old Testament prophecies in such manner.

Now, when it comes to the physical, earthly fulfillment of this prophecy, we must consider what is the historical context of Ezekiel’s prophetic ministry. In other words, to whom was he directly sent to prophesy? He was sent directly to Israel during the Babylonian exile, as was the case with Jeremiah. Throughout the book of Ezekiel we see him clearly prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the Babylonian captivity, as well as the return and restoration of national Israel afterward. As with Jeremiah, Ezekiel’s prophetic book is composed of both warnings of impending judgment and encouragement about a promised restoration afterward. I find it interesting to note that the name Ezekiel in Hebrew means "God will strengthen". Part of Ezekiel’s ministry was to strengthen God’s remnant people during the Babylonian exile.

So I think it’s pretty clear that in terms of it's physical, earthly application, Ezek. 36 was intended to be an encouragement to the captives, a promise of restoration after the 70 years of captivity. There is no need to put the physical, earthly fulfillment of this prophecy way off into the hugely distant future and in my opinion, strip it of the immediate encouragement it was intended to give to the captives during Ezekiel’s time.

Now, let’s deal with the meat of your question regarding 36:23-28. If we consider what happened during and after the Babylonian captivity, it becomes clear that national Israel was indeed deeply cleansed and purified from their idols. Never again did they return to Baal worship as they were so prone to do before the Babylonian exile. The Babylonian captivity served to purge them from that type of gross idolatry. And we read in Ezra and Nehemiah of a huge awakening and revival that took place after the 70 years were completed.

Now, as far as the reference to the indwelling of the Spirit, I believe it can have at least a two-fold application. I believe it can be applied to what happened after the Babylonian exile and to what has happened from Pentecost onward in the New Covenant. The word "within" there is the Hebrew word 'qereb' which can be translated "within, among, or in the midst of". So with this consideration in mind, it can mean that Israel would have God's Spirit mightily at work in their midst upon their restoration. But I also do not discount that it can refer to individual OT saints being indwelt by the Spirit.

I think there is a common misconception among many Evangelicals when it comes to how the Spirit of God worked in the lives of God’s people during Old Testament times. Many assume that the Spirit was not really that active during OT times, but nothing could be further from the truth. It is true that the Spirit’s power and activity among God’s people was more minimal back then than it has been since Pentecost but nevertheless the Spirit worked mightily in the lives of OT saints.

Here are a few examples of the Spirit indwelling God’s people even in the OT:

“And the Lord said to Moses: "Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him”-Numbers 27:18

“But My servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit in him and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land where he went, and his descendants shall inherit it.”-Numbers 14:24

Also, remember when Jesus was approached by Nicodemus in John 3? When Nicodemus was at a loss concerning the new birth, what was Jesus' response to him? Did not our Lord reprove him for not knowing about the new birth? Was not our Lord referring especially to these verses in Ezekiel 36 where the new birth is so clearly laid out in the OT? Our Lord expected Nicodemus to know about the experience of the new birth even during OT times. This experience was for them also, though not as powerfully as it is for us today.

And I could go on sharing other examples of the Spirit’s presence, guidance, and empowerment being a constant reality in the lives of God's people during OT times.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/23 15:35Profile









 Re: Brother Notdarkyet

Neil

You wrote:

"Brother NDY, even engaging in this "posting" to you is causing me so much soul grief as I type, because when my soul gazes at the BIG PICTURE......what power do these men have? "

they have as much power as the devil has over Jesus,

And you wrote

"Just words written on a cyber forum, lacking the Sweet Fragrance of Jesus, lacking ANY anointing, just lonely men with nothing better to do, then to hijack an internet ministry, with a single minded attempt, and tenacity, almost as if they were whipped by an unclean spirit to post post post...yet I can read the invariable response, "ugly accusations""

Spot on. But is is aggravating to have to endure this diversion of God Word,
This is an attempt to obveryscate the mandate of sermon index to promote revival
and renewed lives given over to the purposes of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It makes one wonder if these individuals are plants.

 2015/11/23 18:25









 Brother Carmine

in my post to brother(sister) NDY, I outlined what concerned me.

Now it has become wholly evident to me, that these men who cleave to the apostasy of replacement theology are allowed to go unchecked on this forum, which indicates either A. a lack of leadership....or B. that leadership by its lack of leadership agrees with this foul wickedness.

in either case, I wonder how the "on-line" body at large would react to the truth that SI is becoming a haunt for men who hold to such apostate beliefs....and have no compunction to bully other posters who disagree with such error....putting up post after post.

I mean who has the time and energy to write and write about such folly, and why are they so driven?

I DO wonder what the Body would say, if attention was canted HERE, so that many could read this apostasy on SI, Christians that never heard of SI, but will hear of it now, and be offered a chance to take it before the LORD and make up their own hearts and souls.

 2015/11/23 19:13
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re: Brother Carmine

The problem with saying that the prophecy form jeramya was full fill long ago in the past ,is it doesn't flow with the biblical context,,,Paul para quotes that verse in Hebrews ,with shows it was being fulfilled at that time rather then in times past ,,and also if one looks at the presiding verses ,,,,,,


And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."


It shows that when that is fullfilled it will never be over thrown ,and as we no in times past Jacob was over throwen ,,so it is impossible that this prophecy of jeramya was fullfilled 70 years later after there exile ,, it contradicts the contextual flow , of the raising back up of the land of Israel and the great revivle,when the deliver comes out of Zion ,and turned the ungodliness away of Jacob ,,as something that will not be thwarted by anything ,,,the fulfilment of the evalasting covenant ,when the Jews as a nation and generally speaking as a whole will as the remenent ,the last days remenent enter the new Covenent .....

 2015/11/24 1:21Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37392
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Brothers and sisters,

We ask admist any discussion on biblical topics that we can show grace to other believers who we would disagree with. I am not saying this verse applies to anyone 100% directly but there is an application we can use in that if some brethren have a better grasp on a truth then they can gently and prayerfully share with others in the right spirit, which then will bring change.

"But avoid foolish and unlearned debates, knowing that they create strife. The servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but must be gentle toward all people, able to teach, patient, in gentleness instructing those in opposition. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - 2 Timothy 2:23-26 MEV

May we not accuse other brothers and sisters, there was a time when we also did not see things clearly and still if we are honest there are areas in our walks were we are blinded to and others are showing "great grace" towards us.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/11/24 1:30Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Gary, You are correct in what you say.

There seems to be a very basic misunderstanding of biblical history to say that the prophecies of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the later Prophetic books were fulfilled by the return of the exiles from Babylon.

It is clear that Israel NEVER had autonomous rule over their own land after Babylon and all the time up to the Roman dispersion in AD70. They were always under the rule of a Gentile nation. First Persia, then Greece and then finally Rome. These were the 'times of the Gentiles', which began with the Babylonian exile and lasted until this present day. It also seems that the temple that was re-built by Zerubbabel never had the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies (there is no mention of it) and that the temple was not filled with the glory of the LORD as it was prior to the exile.

When you read through all that God promised and intended for His people Israel after Babylon, you cannot help to realise that they are still waiting for the fulfilment of all those blessings, which they have never entered into. It was supposed to be a time when their Messiah would rule in their midst and they would be the head of all nations. They were not in a position to receive that then, but He will bring it to pass. This is why the Millennium Kingdom is so key to understanding God's fulfilment of His promises. IT HAS NEVER YET BEEN FULFILLED. If God means what he says He WILL bring it to pass. So let God be true and every man a liar.

The major error in this whole debate is saying that Israel is now the Church. That is based on a completely false premise that the word Israel means the church. This is not supported by scripture and is the topic for another post.


_________________
Dave

 2015/11/24 5:02Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.


You can see here that gods says he will do what he promised to the Jewish people ,,,Jesus the branch executes judgment ,,remember Jesus said in his first coming he never came for judgment ,but he does the second time ,,notice it is said that he will execute this in the land ,,,,,wow juda will be saved and wait Jerusalem shale dwel safely ,,,,,this is a future happpings in the land of Israel and in involves gods chosen ethnic people ,as laters verses say it will never be thawted......


Jer 31"40



And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."



 2015/11/24 5:40Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy