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 Re:

Ant-semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture.

 2015/11/22 9:48
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

I am looking at the MRCA of all human being's there are somethings that the secularist are not taking into account in there estimation of the MRCA of all human being's such as 70 AD and the Jewish diaspora to all parts of the world.

As I think of the Scriptures as well as researching MRCA,
could it be that every human alive today is a natural descendant of Jacob ?

 2015/11/22 9:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Notdarkyet on 2015/11/22 9:48:51

Ant-semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture.



Notdarkyet, If you can't present your beliefs in a reasoned way, I would ask you to cease and desist with the hateful accusations and labels. We oppose a theological concept, not people. If you cannot control yourself, I would ask Greg and other moderators to talk to you about it.

One thing the link I gave presents very well is how false your accusations are: read it and cease your verbal attacks.

“Anti-Semitic?” Really?
In Israel, My Glory journal (June, 2006), the Editor, Elwood McQuaid, notes that any person who is anti-Israel is, “at the same time, anti-Semitic.”

This Editor’s loose generalization lacks substance and is void of reality. It is like saying that anyone who is anti-Nazi is, at the same time, anti-German, or that anyone who is anti-United Nations is, at the same time, opposed to all nations. There are many elements about National Israel I oppose, particularly the theology that she is God’s holy nation and special people and should be supported—financially and otherwise.

But am I anti-Jew because I oppose this theological concept? I oppose factors within America’s political system, believing it is largely pregnant with corruption. Does that make me anti-American?

It bugs me beyond words when these evangelical Editors and other writers, who lend their allegiance to National Israel “because she is God’s holy nation,” take pot-shots at those of us who cannot adopt their theological stance, and accuse us of being anti-Semitic. God has only one holy nation today, and she is the Christian community or the one body of believers. The divine testimony so affirms. Yet these evangelical Editors and their staff writers will point to a nation of atheists, National Israel, and affirm that she is God’s holy entity. Nothing could be farther from the truth. And so I say to Editor McQuaid: Get off your soap-box, cast aside your anti-ism, and face reality.

Enough is enough. Another staff-writer of Israel, My Glory told about the many ways Israel can be blessed. He referred, of course, to National Israel, not the community of the redeemed. This in spite of the fact that National Israel is 85% atheistic. So how in heaven’s name can we bless a nation of atheists? How in heaven’s name can God bless a nation of atheists? Yes, God no doubt has a remnant among the Jews in National Israel, as He has a remnant among all races. But to encourage Christians to bless an atheistic nation is beyond my ability to understand. I’d better close this section before I get all wound up and someone falsely accuses me of being anti-Semitic.

 2015/11/22 11:36
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I find it interesting to note how we’re accused of over-spiritualizing Old Testament prophecies pertaining to Israel, when in reality it’s our Dispensational brethren who do just that. These prophecies in Jeremiah are a prime example. Many say that these prophecies are referring to the regathering of national Israel in our day, but the context clearly shows that they refer to the return of national Israel from Babylonian exile.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/22 12:37Profile









 Re:

Is there anything in the Bible that you actually believe?
Or do you just invent things as you go along?

 2015/11/22 17:14









 Brother Notdarkyet

I've been "sitting" on this post to YOU, praying, pondering, and I believe in the final analysis is what we have here is a pearls before swine dichotomy.

you sent a slim simple arrow flying:

"Anti-Semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture."

and you witnessed the reaction, with verbiage of

quote:

"Notdarkyet, If you can't present your beliefs in a reasoned way, I would ask you to cease and desist with the hateful accusations and labels. We oppose a theological concept, not people. If you cannot control yourself, I would ask Greg and other moderators to talk to you about it."

the dread irony is so thick you can cut with it a knife, in a different time and age, this "to talk to you about it." would be the stake, a pile of oak brush and the flame for you.

You unpack Jeremiah's Book of Consolation, (Chapters 30-33) in an attempt to "reason"....and that where the pearls before swine dichotomy comes in....there is no reasoning there, only a hard brittle form of "religion" cast back at you.

Heaven forbid, you speak and search out, with heart knowledge lensed thru the God the Holy Ghost, the Four "Suffering Servant Songs" of Isaiah, would you receive a hearing salted with love?.....or should we search out the Seven Penitential Psalms, that formed an early liturgy of the Early Church, known as The Way?

and then I ask myself, and I ask God, "what would be the fruit?"...its really just a barren tree, that's the error of replacement theology, or british-israelism....which then leads further into a dark denhole entitled "Christian Identity"....which basically says that all the Blessings of the Old Testament "belong" now to the "church", and all the curses, belong to the Jews.

Its a tortured twisting reading of The Story of God, which in the final analysis is One Glorious Continuum, not "fence-lined" off into "them" and "us".

Now, as you can see in the Writings, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, all of what happened, Godly and ungodly, is fearlessly recounted AND Canonized....yes?

I wonder how the "history" of the "church"(es...plural) over the last 1700 years would read like?....seeing as much of the New Testament was locked into Canon under the aegis of that scarlet whore of Rome, that is the Roman Catholic "Church", and its two cousins, the Greek and Russian Orthodox "churches", all "resplendent" with their priestcraft, their superstitions, their idolatry, the absolute wickedness of a MAN terming himself the "vicar" of Christ, said man the "papa, the "pope", who is even titled "holy father" by souls trapped in that institution fashioning itself as a "church".

Brother NDY, even engaging in this "posting" to you is causing me so much soul grief as I type, because when my soul gazes at the BIG PICTURE......what power do these men have?

Just words written on a cyber forum, lacking the Sweet Fragrance of Jesus, lacking ANY anointing, just lonely men with nothing better to do, then to hijack an internet ministry, with a single minded attempt, and tenacity, almost as if they were whipped by an unclean spirit to post post post...yet I can read the invariable response, "ugly accusations".....but let me tell you, I wrote a loving personal intimate testimony on How God was pleased to crush me, and in a supernatural Sovereign Way, reveal His Son TO me and IN me, wrote to brother Blaine (bearmaster)...and NOT five minutes had past since I hit the "post" button, it was not Blaine, who answered, but the seeming ringleader Julius, and he did not address anything I wrote, nor shared in my joy, but wrote a post that was full of "inquisition" (fully reminiscent of the Inquisitors of Spain)

it was terrible, who would want to even deign to post in such an environment? Its terrible, one feels like a pack of feral dogs awaiting the "meat" of others posts, to tear them apart and that's what I mean by "hi-jacking" this forum, and the result of all that will be; it will bring great reproach on a ministry, that my brother Greg has lovingly labored on for over 13 years.

But much to his horror, Greg will find out, once you let the wolves in the sheepfold, they are ravenous, and will make shipwreck of a website, that had "true Biblically based Revival" at the heart and center of this once redeemed website...and that grieves me no end.

This is all I can bear to write brother NDY, I just was led to write you, and tell you in love, you're not alone in what you so clearly discern, In Jesus love, neil

please allow me to send you a compilation Jesus and I edited together in 2003(?) entitled a "A Kingdom of Priests" which my brother Greg so lovingly hosts here. I was led to cut this together for my then 8 year old precious son, who was, at his own request, water baptized together with me....the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the NEED for my son to KNOW who he IS in Messiah Jesus, and now I send it for your edification, its 12 minutes long, and God willing profitable, to just close your eyes, and let the Wind of the Spirit in....MY PRAYER is that these men also listen and realize that I don't "hate" them....or "dislike" them, but I will not countenance error, nor sit still, when I feel a Godly forum hijacked.

"Kingdom of Priests"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12043


 2015/11/22 23:37
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Is there anything in the Bible that you actually believe?
Or do you just invent things as you go along?


Was that question for me or Julius or both?


_________________
Oracio

 2015/11/23 0:08Profile









 Re:

Ephesians 2:12-14
That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST, being ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL , and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath BLESSED US WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 2015/11/23 6:53
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2127


 Re: For Julius

From the OP

Julius: I believe this is such an important topic and I was thinking the other day, why should we not be able to have reasoned conversation without being bullied and labeled with venomous and hateful words? And do others resort to such conduct because they are afraid of the truth or maybe they are unable to reason from the Scriptures their point of view?

Doc: I agree that respectful conversation can be acarried on regarding this subject. We just have to want to and have to try and make an effort.

Juilius: Does it make any difference that many look to physical Israel for Biblical fulfillment while others look to spiritual Israel? Is it unimportant? Does it really not matter that some look to the natural world while others are looking at the spiritual state of things?

Doc: Respectfully good bro, I see some things that you seem to be wrong about right out of the gate. No one (not even dispensationalists of which I am not), that believes Israel has a future as a godly nation within specified geographical borders is looking to physcial Israel. That's a common belief but it is wrong. Those who believe Israel has a future as a godly nation are looking not at which physical Israel is now but what they will be when a remnant become believers in Christ and part of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. Those who believe Israel has a spiritual future are indeed looking at the spiritual state of things to be. Unfortunantely, it's been my experience that no matter how many times this is stated over and over that it doesn't seem to sink in to the other side.

Julius: I believe if we look to the natural for the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, the Church will be deceived. And that the Church must stop looking to national Israel for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the new covenant era. The Church is the Israel of the new covenant. Paul says, we are "THE ISRAEL OF GOD". That seems awfully synonymous to "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL".

Doc: Again, in a respectful manner I pray, no one is looking to physical Israel for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. They are looking to a redeemed physical Israel who have become part of the Church by placing their faith in Christ and becoming part of THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Julius: What "rule" is Paul speaking of? The rule of "being a new creature in Christ", where circumcision is not of the flesh but of the heart.

I may be wrong but the Scriptures seem to teach that Biblical prophecy relating to the new covenant era is about spiritual Israel, not national Israel. It is about the true and false, or apostate Christians, not true or false national Israelites. The testimony of the scriptures is clear about them during the new covenant era.

Doc: There are prophecies regarding a unbelieving physical Israel and the trauma and tribulation they will undergo during the final days of this age (Deut 4:30, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21) and there are prophecies regarding their redeeemd spiritual state when they have crossed over the deep waters of tribulation from which a redeemed remnant is will be brought forth.

Julius: Prophecy concerning God's people is no longer about national Israel, but rather spiritual Israel, which is composed of all those of every race and nation who claim to be Christ's own.

Doc: Like I said, there are prophecies of both types relating to physical Isarel and what they are to undego as a remnant is brought forth who are to be part of TRUE ISRAEL. To say those who believe in a godly future for Israel are looking only to nationality or national ethnicity is wrong. God can raise up stones to become natural descendants of Abraham. It is the SPIRITUAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM who are in Christ that the promises will be made good to.

Julius: It is difficult at best to get around Joshua 21:43-45. All the promises relating to physical land and other matters were fulfilled under Joshua, but because of the Jews’ continual and chronic rebellion against God, "He amputated all of the land He had given them during the Roman/Jewish war of 67-70 A. D." Let it be noted that God never promised to give Israel land, or anything else, BUT ON THE CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE.

"And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Jos 21:43-45)

Doc: Why then hundreds of years later were the prophets still prophesying of possessing the land far into the future? In the day and the time of the writing of Joshua the promises had been fulfilled up until then but yet the land was not possessed FOREVER as the original promises and intent had been. If all was fulfilled in Joshua's day then why were the prophets later still continuing to include possession of the land in their prophecies? Why? Because the land had been possessed but not FOREVER as the orignal promises had foretold. God's promises will forever remain short on fulfillment until the natural branches are reinstated into the body of Christ and they possess the land in perpetuity and "lay down securely in peace with none to make themn afraid again" (Jer 23:6 - a Messianic prophecy).

As believers, the Holy Spirit within them (Christ in them the hope of glory) will give them the moral ability to obey God and keep His laws (Ezekiel 36:27) and therefore be OBEDIENT and keep the land (Jer 23:3, Ezekiel 36:28).

Julius: Not Finished Yet
"But is God finished with Jews as a race? Absolutely not! No more than He is finished with Gentiles as a race. God has not forsaken Jews or Gentiles. He wants all of them to come to His Son for deliverance and salvation. My entire thrust in this feature has been that He is finished with the Jews as a holy people and nation or as a religious and political state. We ought to accept the reality that God has only one “Israel” today, and she is the family or one body of believers." (Eph. 4:4).

Doc: Yet from my vantage point your entire thrust is based on faulty and untrue assumptions. Why? Because God is going to eventually bring them into His spiritual family by becoming part of the body of believers in Christ. The exile and dispersion they have undergone is in itself a sign that God has still been actively dealing with them over the centuries because exile and dispersion is a aspect of the covenant itself just a negative aspect. To say God has been through with them as a nation is to rob Jewish suffering of its true meaning over the centuires. They have suffred because God IS STILL actively dealing with them which means they are still in covenant with God as a nation they have just suffered the negative aspects of the covenant - Deut 29:28, Luke 21:22-24. Jewish suffering over time loses its true meaning if all that can be said is God has been through with them. Their suffering has been within the bonds of the covenant. There and only there can Jewish suffering find its true meaning.

Julius: All believers, regardless of race, are the children of Abraham (Gal. 3:7, 26-29).
All believers, regardless of race, are God’s chosen children (Eph. 1:3-6, Titus 2:11-14).
All believers, regardless of race, are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, “a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9).
All believers, regardless of race, are the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16, 2 Cor. 6:16).
All believers, regardless of race, are currently in God’s spiritual kingdom or reign (Col. 1:13-14).
All believers, regardless of race, are called the circumcision (Phil. 3:3).
All believers, regardless of race, are called Jerusalem, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-12).

Doc: Absolutely yes to all of those. Pre-mill believers do not deny this. It's a wrong premise to assume that if one believesthat national Isarel has a future as a godly and redeemed nation that the above is not true. When they become part of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL/TRUE ISRAEL by faith thier destiny will be a living demonstration that the above is true. The addtion of the Gentiles (Ephe 3:6 did nothing to change this. The thought seems to be that the addition of the Gentiles somehow brough about the spiritulization and even nullification of original promises made to Abraham (Gen 15:6-21). Verse 6 - Abraham believed God and it was reckined to him as righteousnmess. When Isarel believes God and Christ at the set time it will be reckoned to thenm as righteousness and the inward presence and righteousness of the Holy Spirit will make them morally able to not only possess the land but to keep the land. In no way will that nullilfy or marginalize the universal concept of Romans 4:13.

I didn't mean to go n so long good bro. I just started typing and this post came about.

Blessings.


_________________
David Winter

 2015/11/23 11:23Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2127


 Re: Oracio - what about verses in Ezekiel?

Oracio: The prophecies in Jeremiah concerning a physical return of national Israel from physical captivity were fulfilled in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah after the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.

Jeremiah 32

37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries whither I have driven them in Mine anger and in My fury and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely.

38 And they shall be My people, and I will be their God;

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me for ever, for the good of them and of their children after them.

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me.

41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul.

42 “For thus saith the Lord: As I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

43 And fields shall be bought in this land whereof ye say, ‘It is desolate without man or beast. It is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.’

44 Men shall buy fields for money, and sign evidences and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley and in the cities of the South; for I will cause their captives to return, saith the Lord.”

What about versesin Ezekiel and elsewhere?

23 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:23-28)

Upon the return from Babylon, when did the people who returned have the Spirit placed within them (Exekiel 36:27)? The indwelling Spirit is a sign of the New Covenant being in effect and receiving the Spirt within only comes about through faith in Christ. So there is a future day prophesied when Israel will be returned from the nations and have the Spirit of God and Christ placed within them.


_________________
David Winter

 2015/11/23 11:35Profile





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