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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Covenants made with Israel and the one new man - PT II

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 Re:

JFW,

Names in v24, 25?

What names? My apologies if I am being dense.

 2015/10/30 15:32
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

JFW, I believe the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and of the twelve Apostles are in reference to all Old and New Testament saints, the entirety of the redeemed people of God. In other words its symbolic.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/30 15:40Profile









 Re:

Oh, the names in chapter 19? Good point, Oracio.

Let me add something else.

The comprehensive period of a "thousand years" may have begun at Christ's victorious defeat of Satan on the cross. In historical terms, we may be in this "comprehensive" time, now.

John "saw thrones" (20:4) in heaven with God's people, "seated in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). "Judgment was given to them" (20:4), just as Jesus indicated that His followers would "sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:29), and Paul wrote that "the saints will judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" (Co 6:1-5)


In Revelation 20.4, Christians are represented as not worshipping the beast or his image and not receiving the mark upon their forehead or their hands. These Christians have not turned to idolatrous religion and received its stamp upon their identity and character. These Christians are also represented as "come to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" and just as Jesus "was dead, and has come to life", Christians have come to life, passing "out of death unto life" (1 John 3:14). By so doing, they reign in life through Jesus Christ (Rom 5:17,21). To "reign with Christ" is to be actively functioning and participating in the "Kingdom of His dear Son", (Col 1:13).

We do not serve a militaristic Messiah who would be a human king in terms of a nationalism and this should not be transferred over to mean the Kingdom reign of Christ during the "thousand year" period. Jesus specifically stated, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

 2015/10/30 16:16









 

Question: "What is the purpose of the thousand-year reign of Christ?"

Answer: The Millennium (also known as the Millennial Kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the Tribulation and before all the people of the world are sent to either heaven or hell. Jesus will reign as king over Israel as well as all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill promises God made to the world that cannot be fulfilled while Satan is free and humans have political authority. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. All of these will be fulfilled during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18–20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21–24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7–9)—into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land for eternity (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant—one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His step-father (Matthew 1:1–17) and His mother (Luke 3:23–38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ eternal reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20–21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah (Romans 9—11). They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 100). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11–14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18–23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:13–15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

 2015/10/30 17:23
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1426
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Oracio,
Well yes of course the OT (tribes) NT (apostles) but in vs 24,25 it speaks of the saved of the nations walking in it (light of) and the gates never being closed,... Are you saying this is figurative as well?
I only ask because there is allot of semantical detail in the depiction and says that the saved will walk in it,...this doesn't sound so figurative to me.


_________________
Fletcher

 2015/10/30 17:27Profile









 Re:

JFW, consider how "walk" is used here:

"as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE, ...be also in the likeness of his resurrection...alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:4,5,11);

Paul indicates that "we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, 'I will dwell in them, AND WALK IN THEM; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.'" (II Cor. 6:16).

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The "city of God", the Church "the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory". (Isa 60:19)

"the Lamb is the light thereof", (21:23)

"In him was life; and the life was THE LIGHT OF MEN." (John 1:4)

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9)
***************************************************************************************************

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

"And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." (Isa 60:3)

Isaiah foresaw that in the New Jerusalem, “Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising”. It is amazing to contemplate how these OT scriptures must have burst with so much meaning in the hearts of the Apostles.

***************************************************************************************************
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there

Jesus Christ is the “way” (John 14:6), and there is open access His “holy city” by His death for all men. “Its gates shall not be shut” (21:25), just as Isaiah explained that “Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night” (Isa. 60:11).

Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Jerusalem above is a very safe place to inhabit. No security measures or walls are necessary, for “Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited”.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

God will not allow anything unclean or abominable or false. To be a resident in the city you must be spiritually united with Christ. The Holy Spirit will not tolerate anything that is contrary to the character of Christ.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 2015/10/30 18:05
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

JFW, I agree with Julius' last post. Again, I personally don't believe we can reasonably get around the Lamb's wife, the spiritual Jerusalem being depicted there in symbolic language.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/30 18:37Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1426
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Julius,
Yeah bro I'm tracking with you on the references to us being the temple/church and the different uses (spiritual/physical) of the terms "walk" etc... But I (and forgive me for not being clearer) see that it's not an either or scenario but both a figurative and literal in that while we are "the church/bride" there is also a literal aspect to this city whose foundation is God and I'm suggestion (for consideration) that the culture of this heavenly city is in fact Hebrew,..or better put the Hebrew culture IS the Heavenly culture given to Israel by God and not of their own making. Which is why in my view the names would be written in Hebrew which (for me) gives credence to "ethnic" Israel's role in the redemptive process.

I understand that our different views help to shape our scriptural interpretations and visa/versa and so when I read through the scriptures this parallel/contrast is very apparent to my mind. All the while I understand for others with a different view that would not be the case but in fact the opposite.



_________________
Fletcher

 2015/10/30 18:43Profile









 Re:

JFW, thanks for explaining your viewpoint. I definitely respect it and think all viewpoints are important to consider. There are so many things I don't know about all of this and I am searching just like you. I do know that everything must be submitted to Christ and by this I mean that nothing can become more important that Him. That is why I always say that our various views of scripture must always maintain a Christocentric approach.

As far as Revelation, I do see a large part of it as a panoramic, full color, 360 degree movie of so many things and not necessarily a chronological timeline that we are all very fond of making. Men want a very organized timeline and I don't think that is what God was giving John. There are so many things in Revelation that came into spiritual reality after the death and resurrection of Christ and of course there are still several things awaiting, too.

John knew the OT scriptures and he must have been an artistic type of person or maybe he had to write Revelation in such a way that it would be concealed from those without. I don't know. But it seems that so much of it is explainable (as scripture explains scripture) and not Black Hawk Helicopters and Tanks as we have seen in some interpretations.

For instance:

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

What could this refer to?

Could it coincide with Zechariah 14:11?
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And also we know that a curse (destruction) came to the fall of man. Well, through and in Christ there is no longer any curse present. We don't have to get to heaven for that. Christ took the curse for us on the tree of crucifixion (Gal 3:13).

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And we don't have to incur any curses for disobedience (Deut 27,28) but are now able to participate in the "blessings that are ours in Christ Jesus".

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

As you can see, Rev 22:3 is happening right now.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Referring to Rev 22:4 - We see God now. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God". (Matt 5:8) Jesus said, "If you have seen me ye have seen the Father". There is a sense that we can see God as Christians because "God hath shone in our hearts"

2Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

We see Christ in our brothers and sisters, yet we still look forward to "see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) "face to face" (1 Cor 13:12).

But in the meantime, we "endure, as seeing him who is invisible" (Heb 11:27)

Brother, I love you and all the brothers and sisters here on SI, and realize we are all learning. I don't want to be deceived and you don't so we are absolutely correct in testing the spirits until we are satisfied. Jesus is communicating to us in no uncertain terms that an incredible deception and delusion is coming to the Church. I don't think that has really ever hit me like it is hitting me, today. I am hoping to gain new light all the time (and I do) searching with brothers and sisters on SI. This is absolutely the best place I know of on the net. You guys are all awesome.
http://littleguyintheeye.com/biblical-studies/end-times/zionism/

 2015/10/30 19:09
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1426
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Amen to that dear brother!
Indeed it is truly fascinating to witness the Lord work, knitting the body of believers together wether Jew or Gentile. Honestly I love that on our best day we can't figure it all out but must wait for it to be unveiled,... mos def keeps it interesting and engaging as He continues to reveal Himself in new ways.
And as for SI,.. it truly is a unique blessing in these days of darkness. It's no small thing that the Lord has done in and thru this ministry of brother Greg.


_________________
Fletcher

 2015/10/30 19:59Profile





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