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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2156

 Covenants made with Israel and the one new man - PT II

This is an attempt at a few replies to my former questions. I hope I'm not out of line by starting a new thread but the other one jumped to a longer length than I anticipated and I get sort of lost trying to sort my way through all of the repolies whcih I appreciate,. And I'm not trying to put proudpapa or anyone on the spot but just to have a clean thread not so full.

For proudpapa. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

I asked,

RE: /// but I'm asking for answers from those who believe it would be building dividing walls again. What is your reasoning for this?

You replied,

Racism is done away with in the Body of Christ

'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

'Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all. ' (END)

Doc: The former wall of partition was established by God Himself so was God the official founder of this racism or was there a larger purpose behind the middle wall of partition being established? Could there have been a larger purpose beyond the outward appearance of this "racism?"

You wrote,

He argues that there is only one Israel of God—comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ.' (END)

Doc: Yet pre-mill believers of which I am one totally agree with that premise. Therefore, if Israel is to be the recepient of a millennial exaltation as a servant nation devoid of carnal nationalistic self interests and dedicated to the service of others it would simply be the true Israel of God receiving this destiny and demonstrating the number one virtue of humility and servanthood that the greatest among you at shall be the servant of all. If they are saved and born again they could be no other than the true Israel of God. What believer or theolgian if you will has ever stated that this blessing is to come to them outside of their being born again?

You wrote,

Lets remember the Bible clearly says that God is not a respecter of persons.

The idea that the physical nation of Israel (because of the race of there flesh) has a place of headship among the nations in the future is a view that goes against the understanding that God is not a respecter of persons as well as Pauls arguement in Romans 9-11 that clearly makes the point that : 'They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (END)

Doc: It's my opinion that the millennial destiny of Israel is never portrayed in scripture as that which will belong to the unbelieving children of the flesh. Just the opposite. If it came to the children of the flesh then God would be a respecter of persons. God's sovereign election is based on not anything in man but on God being able to put in those He chooses what they need to qualify in the inheritance of the saints in Christ. Therefore, if opponents of a millennial destiny for Israel believe it cannot be because it would exalting a nation of unvelievers then they could not be more wrong and are assuming a colossial error that pre-mill believers have never advocated. Besides hearing that if Israel is given a place of headship during a millennium that it would spoil the one new man in Christ, that's something that baffles me a bit also. In spite of clear teaching to the contrary there seems to be the opinion out there that pre-mill believers advocate that even the unbelieving children of the flesh will be included in the promises of Israel's restoration after Christ returns at His second advent. Nope!

I also asked,

Part of my question and thoughts are, have Gentiles forgotten that when they became believers in Christ and part of the commonwealth of Israel (true Israel within Israel) that they were then participating in promises and covenants made to the Jewish commonwealth? (END)

Youu replied,

Physical Israel's role as the commonwealth was done away with.

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

We have a 'better covenant, (an everlasting covenant) which was established upon better promises.' (END)

If Christ returns to the physical nation of Israel what will it say to the notion that He has forever cast off a physical Israel since the place of His return will be in a physical location? If those in the nation Christ returns to will become Christian with God's Spirit within them then would they not be partaking of the everlasting covenant and if so how would they be spoiling the one new man which is entirely made up of believers by simply living in a specified land?

If there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ why does Paul continue to speak of a covenant made with the natural branches?

I've probably over loaded you a bit but I thought it might work if I answered four of your replies in one post instead if four. If it doesn't work I'll learn from it.

Thanks for your answers and the time you took. No rush. I'll try to answer some of the other folks in the morning.

David Winter

 2015/10/28 19:18Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


Hi Docs,

We agree : that there is 1 true Israel of God (made up of both Jew and Gentile)

We agree that there is 1 new man (made up of both Jew and Gentile)

We disagree : In that you seem to believe that in this new man there will be a headship order and that this headship order is based on race.

I believe that flesh and blood are done away with in the new man and so would be race, If there is a hierarchy system within the new man (I am not sure if there is)
It would appear from my reading of Scripture that positions or rewards would be according to each individuals own labour in this life and not according to their race.

we disagree : In that you seem to believe that Jesus will touch down in Jeruselum and the Jewish people in Israel will see Him and than turn to their Messiah.

I believe that there has been and will continue to be a remnant of Jewish people turning to Christ untill the 'Day of the Lord' (A Global Event) at which time : " the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Am I misunderstanding your position ?

 2015/10/28 21:00Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803

 Re: Covenants made with Israel and the one new man - PT II

For those who argue against the natural branch, against the nation of Israel, has God's covenant to Israel, spoken of in the following verses, "come to pass"?

Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Zec 14:18
If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:20
In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21
Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.fn Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Jeff Marshalek

 2015/10/29 8:14Profile

 Re: Significance of the Feast of Tabernacles


A few notes on the interpretation of Zechariah 14
A study of Tabernacles would be incomplete without considering the leading prophecy in this genre. Zechariah 13 deals with the death of God’s Shepherd – at which time the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). At that same time – the scattering of the sheep and the subsequent events of Zechariah’s prophecy cannot be separated by an honest interpretation – God’s judgment would come on Israel and two thirds of the land would perish. But the remnant would be purified as in the fire (Zech. 13:8-9). These events would culminate in the destruction of Jerusalem when the nations came to battle against it (Zech. 14:1-2), ‘I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it.’

This was clearly fulfilled in the siege of Titus in AD70 which commenced at the time of Passover, when the whole land had gathered in the city for that feast. Rome, as an empire, was comprised of ‘all the nations’. Josephus records in his history of these events that garrisons from the many diverse countries under Roman control, participated in the siege.

An apparent difficulty arises at this point in Zechariah’s prophecy, over the verse: ‘On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley…’. This is however prophetic imagery for that very decisive way of escape that God had made for the faithful remnant to avoid His judgment of that time.18 That Way was clearly through the atoning blood of Jesus and, for those who believed in him, in Jesus’ forewarning: ‘let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written’ (Luke 21:21-22). The believers’ escape at the onset of the Roman siege was, incidentally, over the Mount of Olives to trans-Jordan in the east.

The enduring light of God would dawn upon the nations and ‘that Day’ would last indefinately for the duration of the gospel age, i.e. ‘when night comes it will still be day’ (Zech. 14:6-7). During this time living waters would flow from Jerusalem (verse 8) – being explained as the Holy Spirit, in both the New Testament and the Talmud – and the knowledge of God would spread through the whole earth (verse 9). Jesus is both the light (John 8:12) and the source of the water (John 7:38 ). Also at this time, the eternal city would be established, the Jerusalem that is above, seen by Zechariah in chapter 2 and spoken of in Hebrews 11 and Revelation 21. Jerusalem would henceforth be secure (verses 10-11).

The remnant of Israel that escaped judgment and were purified (Zech.13:9) would conquer the nations and bring them under God’s judgment. For, ‘whoever does not believe, stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’ (John 3:18). Those who harden their hearts toward the Son are earmarked for God’s wrath which will be poured out at the end of the age.

By the same gospel, however, a remnant of the nations is saved, and it is this remnant that is envisaged in the concluding verses of Zechariah:

‘Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles’(Zech. 14:16-19).

Faithful believers celebrate Tabernacles by understanding that we are ‘as strangers on this earth’ (Heb. 11:9; 1 Pet. 1:17). ‘People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them’ (Heb. 11 14-16). We continue to celebrate the ingathering of the harvest while God’s ‘appointed time’ – the Day of Salvation – endures: ‘As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work’ (John 9:4).

The rain, like the streams of water, represents the Holy Spirit. Wherever God is served the Spirit will bring conviction of sin and fruit for His Kingdom. Those who do not submit to King Messiah will not receive this rain and will perish in everlasting destruction. ‘For if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ’ (Rom. 8:9).

God’s pre-determined plan for redemption occurs by way of a linear progression – it has a definite beginning in the Passover and a definite end as envisioned in Tabernacles in the ingathering of the nations and the dispersed of Israel into a remnant of Judah. The prophets used the allegories of Israel’s feasts and history to speak of eternal realities which at that time were beyond their sight and comprehension. Since Israel’s feasts and history were given as ‘signs’ and ‘indications’ that foreshadowed an ultimate reality, a future (or present) re-enactment of those types and shadows cannot thus constitute their fulfilment! Nor can participation in the events serving as a ‘sign’ accomplish what it was pointing to.

A failure to see, for example, the gospel as Israel’s means of conquest, those being saved as the ‘ingathered’ harvest and the pilgrim lifestyle of believers as their prophetic participation in the Feast of Tabernacles, leads to ‘idle notions’ and the tragic seduction of Christians. Many Christians are waving flags in Jerusalem and concerning themselves with political intrigue and events in Iran and the Middle East rather than fighting the true battle and contributing to the true fulfilment of God’s plan. Our ‘unspiritual minds’ have puffed us up and we fix our eyes once more on what is seen and passing away, rather than on what is unseen and eternal (2 Cor. 4:18).

Jesus will not return to fight military campaigns on behalf of an ethnic Israel against its flesh and blood enemies. The battle is now, and its object is the lies that war against the truth of God’s ultimate revelation which is ‘the fulfilment of all things’ in Messiah, the way to salvation.


Jesus ‘appeared once for all, at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself’ (Heb. 9:26). There is no further age after ‘the end of the ages’, and Jesus need not appear once again for a particular people when he has already appeared ‘once for all’.

The prescribed reading during Tabernacles included Ezekiel’s prophecies on Gog and Magog. The gospel age is ending with one final, concerted, all encompassing onslaught against those who bear witness to God’s eternal truth. This will be quashed by the Lord’s appearing from heaven. (See Peter Cohen’s article on The Millennium part 3 – Gog and Magog, which deals more fully with this topic.)

Tabernacles was immediately followed by ‘the eighth day’ also known in Hebrew asatzeret (which curtly means a ‘terminus‘ or ‘abrupt end’). On this day all the pilgrims abandoned their ‘shacks’ and returned to their permanent homes. Paul says that ‘if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands’ (2 Cor. 5:1). The eighth day in Scripture is the day of the resurrection. On this day our Lord rose, and and on this day all those who became sojourners in this world through faith in Him, will be instantly translated into the presence of our Lord, and inherit the new heaven and new earth. ‘This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you’ (2 Thes. 1:7-10).

Let us then continue to gather-in while it is Day.

Read the entire article in context:
The Feast of Tabernacles – it’s origins and prophetic significance

 2015/10/29 10:21

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: rookie

rookie it is actually this portion of Scripture being taught to me from the modern perspective that caused me to seriously start doubting the modern eschatology understandings.

Here is John Wesely on Zec 14

Basically the same as Matthew Henry

The view that was held before the 19th century seems much more sober to me.

You run into alot of problems trying to interpret this portion of Scripture literally and applying to the millennium

 2015/10/29 10:42Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2156

 Re: proudpapa - Thoughts and Comments on the Election of Jacob

Yo proudpapa,

Thanks for all of your comments and the time you took to form and make your replies. I read a article titled "Why the Jew" (R. Kelly) and it helped frame some of the thoughts on the subject. Because I thought the article framed the subject well I went through and broke it down sort of point by point and added a few comments of my own and of course more could be added. I offer it as food for thought and it a summary of sorts of how I believe on the subject. Election and why and how it will be worked out is part and parcel of the controversy I believe. I'm still looking for answers as to why people believe any coming exaltation of Israel as a servant nation that will wash the feet of the nations would be spoiling the one new man in Christ. But I already said that. Comments without rancor and strife are welcome.

1) The overriding question

From the first, God's eternal purpose in grace was mediated through Abraham's elect line, but WHY?

2) Foundational principles of mediated grace

In order to dethrone pride, God elects to place the blessing in a despised and disregarded place into which one must 'stoop' to enter.

God hides His secret from pride by mediating the revelation of His salvation through something or someone that is disallowed or despised (I Cor 1:27).

Something high must come down for grace to abound.

Because the truth of election is essentially and ultimately humbling, it is the death sentence to everything that is prideful, lofty and self-assured.

God hides His secrets and mysteries from autonomous self-reliance, even in the plain hearing of it.

3) Questions with relevant bearing on God's choice of Jacob

Why should natural descent count for anything?

Since we know that “in the flesh is nothing good,” why distinguish ethnicity in the first place?

Why single out a 'distinct' people as the locus and channel of divine blessing, if indeed priestly character is all that counts?

Now that faith has come, why continue to distinguish between Jew and Gentile, and between Israel and the Church?

Since the everlasting covenant is fulfilled in Christ, so that “in Him” there is neither Jew nor Greek, why does Paul continue to speak of a covenant “with them” (the 'natural branches') that is unfulfilled until the Redeemer's return (Isa 59:19-21; Rom 11:26-27).

Why isn't faith and priestly character sufficient by itself to mediate blessing to the world? Why should this require embodiment in a specific race of people?

If “all that counts is a new creation” (Gal 6:15), then why is it necessary that the life of this new creation be personified and exhibited through Jews as Jews (“the natural branches”), as a distinct nation ALL holy in their land as long as the earth shall last? (Isa 4:3; 45:17; 54:13; 59:21; 60:21; 66:21)

4) What is God saying in all of this?

God's choice and election of the Jew and Israel was done for the sake of an ultimate demonstration in history of God's sovereign right to choose whom He will minus any works on the part of the elect.

God intends that the entire world be confronted over the question of His sovereign choice of Jacob.

Because God's pre-temporal decision to choose Jacob was and is not based on works (Rom 9:11-23), it exposes a latent resentment and envy in the natural heart that is disinclined to agree with the righteousness of God's choice, which is ultimately the question of His rule.

The truth and reality of divine election stumbles as nothing else the lofty, self-assured confidence in the flesh that every man carries within his own natural heart and thoughts. Nothing else so profoundly offends and stumbles the natural heart.

Paul explains that the election of Jacob is necessary so “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth” (Rom 9:11).

All is to underscore the great maxim of Romans 9:16, “so then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.”

The entire drama of redemption, its ends and ultimate goal, depends on the initial establishment and preservation of an essential ethnic distinction between Jew and Gentile. To lose this essential distinction is to lose the point. It is also to lose the great landmarks of divine instruction.

Through Israel, God will be known to all nations as the God who chooses, and that His favor is not based on anything He 'finds' in man, but on what He has determined to “put within” (create, birth, quicken) those whom He foreknew (Jer 31:33; 32:40; Ezek 36:26-27; Rom 8:29-30)

5) Israel's coming restoration and exaltation

Was the election of Jacob based on divine foresight of the change in His character, or will God's election assure that change?

It is the election that assures the change.

Israels present hopeless condition therefore exists for the glory of God who is well able to change them and graft them in again. God's election of them assures it.

6)Bottom lines

The 'blood of the everlasting covenant' (Heb 13:20), which is the heart of the gospel, is inseparable from the literal provisions of the 'everlasting covenant' as it pertains to both the people and the land of Israel (I Chron 16:17; Ps 105:10-11; Ezek 37:25-26), assuring the salvation of both (Lev 26:42; Isa 62:4; Mic 4:1-8; Acts 1:6; 3:18-21; Rom 11:25-29).

Therefore, the everlasting covenant is inseparable from the everlasting gospel, as all are comprehended within the mystery of Christ's two fold appearance to Israel.

No one gets into the kingdom of God solely because of natural ethnicity. All, Jew and Gentile, must be born again through faith and the inward regeneration of the Spirit as they are washed clean from their sins by the atoning blood of Christ.

To move into their future millennial destiny Israel will have to come the way of the cross as all other Christians have. God's election of them assures He will put in them the everlasting righteousness He requires which will be none other than the righteousness of Christ Himself.

God can't be charged with injustice because of allowing Israel's present return to the land because there is no injustice or unrighteousness with God.

Last Days events will press the question of the 'everlasting covenant.' A literal reading of the great volume of the Hebraic prophetic scripture describing world conditions leading up to the Day of the Lord shows the age will not end before all nations are in agitation over the question of the land of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem, which is also the question of the everlasting covenant (I Chron 16:17-18, Isa 24:5).

God intends that the entire world be confronted over His sovereign choice of Jacob.

7) Common objections to Israel's millennial exaltation

This can't happen because there is now no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

A millennial exaltation of Christ would mar and spoil the one new man in Christ in which no member is to be given a unfair advantage over other members.

This would be re-establishing a wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

God can't promote and exalt one member of the body of Christ over other members.

God is not a respecter of persons.

In Christ, God can't treat one nation differently than other nations.

God is no longer interested in land and physical borders. His kingdom is within.

God can't and won't confine His blessings to one tiny strip of land in the Middle East. In Christ we are presently heirs of the entire world (Rom 4:13)

David Winter

 2015/10/30 12:56Profile

Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1425
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Covenants made with Israel and the one new man - PT II

12:And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14:And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So while this may seem insignificant I believe it addresses the core of this issue being discussed on these dif threads:
The question I pose is; what language are the names written in that adorn the gates and foundations of heaven itself?
The answer to this speaks volumes, albeit quietly, of the answer so many seem to debating regarding ethnic Israel and their role in the grand plan of God's work with the natural and wild olive branches.


 2015/10/30 13:21Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA


12:And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14:And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So while this may seem insignificant I believe it addresses the core of this issue being discussed on these dif threads:
The question I pose is; what language are the names written in that adorn the gates and foundations of heaven itself?
The answer to this speaks volumes, albeit quietly, of the answer so many seem to debating regarding ethnic Israel and their role in the grand plan of God's work with the natural and wild olive branches.

For many years I believed that Revelation 21 was referring to a literal physical heavenly city and that all the numeric measurements mentioned there were to be understood literally. But then it dawned at me as I read that passage carefully that it was clearly a symbolic depiction of the Church, the Lamb's wife. If you're not familiar with this interpretation of it I humbly challenge you to consider verses 9-13 and to see if you can spot why I hold to this view on it:

"9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west."

The rest of the chapter does not specifically mention the Lamb's wife (neither does chapter 22) but continues to describe the holy city. So the question is, why would the angel tell John that he was about to show him the Lamb's wife only to then go on to show him a literal city instead? Where is the revelation of the Lamb's wife which the angel says he's about to show John? It has to be the holy city itself with all of its descriptions including all the numeric measurements.


 2015/10/30 13:51Profile


Because the Lamb's wife IS the Holy City.

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev 21:10)

The “holy city, the New Jerusalem” (21:2), the “Jerusalem above” (Gal. 4:26), the “beloved city” (20:9), “the city whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10), “the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22) is the perfected community of God’s people. We have been getting glimpses of this "city" throughout the book of Revelation (3:12; 11:2). This city is not a geographical location, and neither is it an institutional or ecclesiastical structure. The LIFE of this city is the presence of God by His Son Jesus Christ.

 2015/10/30 14:01

Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1425
Dothan, Alabama


Brothers Oracio and Julius,
Forgive me as I must be misunderstanding what you brothers are saying in its relevance to the question of the language in which these names are written is in- could you help me in understanding this?
I see what you are saying about the city being the bride/church as it were, tho not the city itself but the inhabitants that walk in the light of it- per verse 24,25.... So are you brothers suggesting that the "names" are a figurative reference? If so for what? If not then what language will they be written in?


 2015/10/30 15:19Profile

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