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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Some thought on Romans 11 - by Art Katz


"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" (11:11).

In one of the most remarkable strokes of the divine genius, God turns the tragedy of divine judgment, Israel's casting away, as the very means for the 'grafting in' of the Gentiles so as to redound finally in Israel's return. "What seemed their loss may thus conceivably accomplish a far wider measure of good than even consistent loyalty could have achieved," in that the apostolic proclamation of the gospel was free from the nationalistic pride and legalistic insistence that would likely have repelled Gentiles were it promulgated by the Messiah-accepting nation itself.

The tendency now against which Paul battles is for the Church created through their defection to see itself as having replaced fallen Israel. Therefore the genius of "the amazing doctrine" that places the premium of their return upon the Church created out of their rejection. This mandate of obligation to the Jew, in every locality where the Church itself should be established, brings an ultimate dimension of demand, which if accepted and fulfilled, provides that dynamic that makes the church the Church! It is exactly for this reason that Paul's apostleship, contrary to his enormous rabbinical qualification, is to the uncircumcision rather than to his own!

Paul regards arousing his own (Jewish) people to envy as an aspect of his ministry to Gentiles. It is an example of the continuing interaction between Jews and Gentiles which he perceives, and which is interwoven into his mission strategy.

The key to Israel is the Gentile Church. And the key to the Church, is this dynamic of obligation which it would never have chosen for itself, and yet is alone calculated to save itself from the religious self-centeredness and even 'spiritual' egocentricity that would have been its apostolic ruin For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should become wise in your own conceits" (v.25)!

That this 'mystery' has been lost to the historic and contemporary Church's consideration is evident from its condition. The dimensions of this can never be deduced. Mystery can only be revealed. But revelation itself waits upon a certain disposition of spirit of brokenness and humility towards the Jew and Israel even in (especially in?) their fallenness for which the God of revelation yet waits. Does not God's mercy toward her wait upon a changed heart attitude in the Church according to Psalm 102?


Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favor her yea, the set time, is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favor the dust thereof (vv.13-14).
Notice that the affection is not for some etherealized, romanticized or idealized Israel, but for the grit of the actuality of the nation [not her archeology!] as she in fact is and is unhappily increasingly becoming! The present Israel, in her abject and melancholy condition, is not to be blithely sweep away in that apt turn of phrase that prefers "the Jerusalem that is from above" by disdaining the one that is presently below. It is not even because Jesus once trod her dust but because we have come down and surrendered to the embrace of the whole nation in the totality of her entire history of shameful apostasy as in her moments of glory being completely identified with her in her humiliation as being altogether our humiliation as the Israel of God. Could this be part of the "fullness of the Gentiles" (v.25) that releases "the deliverer to come out of Zion" to "turn away ungodliness from Jacob"?

Our further incentive, and altogether related to and intrinsic to the above, is our apostolic jealousy for our God's honor; for "when the Lord shall build up Zion, He shall appear in His glory"(v.16)"so [because of that] the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth His glory"(v.15)! In summary then, the issue of eschatological climax that concludes the age and issues in the Lord's coming and Kingdom is an Israel restored through the mercy of God released by the response of the Church toward her! It is a "set time" in the sense of something positioned yet waiting upon an attitude of heart on the part of God's servants of the deepest kind that cannot be feigned or simulated!

The issue of God's mercy is the issue of God, for nothing so reveals Him in what He is in Himself than His mercy. Israel's qualification for His mercy is her disqualification, for


It is only in the context of disobedience that mercy has relevance and meaning. Mercy is of such a character that disobedience is its complement or presupposition and only as exercised to the disobedient does it exist and operate. . . It is by the mercy shown to the Gentiles. . . that Israel's conversion is realized.
If all mankind is to have hope, [and it is for all mankind that Israel is the paradigm or model] it is not enough for God's mercy to be stated abstractly as a principle. It has to be showed in that nation most disobedient and least deserving that mercy might be mercy and God be God! This is the mystery of Israel's calling and election and indeed our own! The accent now falls upon the determinate action of God. He "hath shut up all unto disobedience". . . "that He might have mercy upon all"(Rom. 11:32).

What is the significance for the world in Israel's restoration? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (v.15)?

Seeing that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"(v.29), "There cannot be irremediable rejection of Israel; the holiness of theocratic consecration is not abolished and will one day be vindicated in Israel's fullness and restoration". "The ingrafting of Israel is for this reason the action which of all actions is consonant with the unfolding of God's worldwide purpose of grace". "If God could use the tragedy of Israel's rejection to bring salvation to the Gentiles, with what further blessing could he not enrich the world through Israel's acceptance and fullness?"

One recent commentator speaks of Israel's return as "The eschatological miracle. . . when the full number of Gentiles come in; like a nuclear reaction reaching critical mass, this will finally provoke the Jews to jealousy and to belief in Christ in large numbers. The latter in turn will signal or correspond with life from the dead, the resurrection of all believers, and thus with the return of Christ."

Conclusion

Israel's last days restoration through the Church is the climax of the ages. It precipitates the Millennial Kingdom and the glory. The role of the church in this is supreme and ultimate requiring a sanctification of a final and ultimate kind. Its fulfillment of the mandate of Israel can be only upon the ground of resurrection itself. By this mandate through the Word of the Lord, the Church is itself provoked to a ground which it would not otherwise have sought nor obtained and that prepares it now for its own Millennial destiny an blessedness. Thus has Israel, even in its apostasy and fallenness, played a critical though unwitting role in the divine saga that concludes the age and introduces the ages to come in which it will be eternally grateful for the role of the Gentile Church toward itself that obtained their mercy.

"O the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out. . . For of him, and through him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Art Katz - SI text sermons archive.


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Dave

 2015/10/28 5:44Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1303
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Some thought on Romans 11 - by Art Katz

Brother Dave,
This is such a blessing to wake up to:)

There is something in brother Katz wordings that is especially appealing to me. Here in his comments on Romans 11, he is in classic form. There is a meekness in the brutality of his honesty and the fear of the Lord an ever present thing in his ministry like few others in that for this brother the fear of the Lord is not something that has to be "mustered up" but rather is an inescapable reality that he finds himself in as a result of his faith in God and belief in Jesus as the messiah.
Most everytime I listen to or read from this brother I am edified, exercised and grown by the anointing on his ministry. He has been one of my favs since Jeremy221 had posted a series of his messages years ago and turned me on to his ministry.




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Fletcher

 2015/10/28 8:05Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5405
NC, USA

 Re:

He has also been one of my favorites.

His three part series called "The Holocaust" is eye-opening.


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/28 8:42Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Some thought on Romans 11 - by Art Katz

I think the difference in the historic understanding to that of the modern understanding is that historically it was understood that a remenant out of Israel is being grafted back in from every generation and that this this will continue untill the "Day of the Lord"

The modern understanding though seems to teach that Israel will instantaneously be Saved at or around the "Day of the Lord"

Is my understanding incorrect ?

 2015/10/28 9:19Profile









 Re:

I love brother Art. I first met him in 1979 when I was invited to a gathering in a friend's living room. I did not know he would be there, but was thrilled when I saw him and was told he would be sharing with us. He spoke on "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory". I will never forget that meeting.

Everyone can be wrong about something and I am sure that I am wrong about many things. On this subject, I do think Art is missing something.

Phillip Mauro has a great piece on God's promise to Israel and in fact has a book on "The Hope of Israel".

Phillip doesn't just give an "opinion", he takes the reader through many, many scriptures (which I love). This book should be a major addition to anyone's library.

Here is the synopsis:
Jewish fables (literally, myths) are no new thing. Paul has plainly warned the household of faith not to give heed thereto. He has not given us a list of those grievous heresies; but it is well known that the one that was most fondly cherished, and that constituted the gravest menace to the truth of the gospel, was the notion that the leading purpose of the mission of the coming Messiah would be the reconstitution of the Jewish nation and its elevation to the highest pinnacle of earthly dominion and glory; for that fatuous doctrine was the cornerstone of orthodox Judaism in Paul's day; and because of his sturdy opposition to it he was persecuted, his enemies plotted to take his life, and he was sent a prisoner to Rome. No wonder that, during the term of his imprisonment there, he wrote to Titus his plain-spoken warning against "Jewish fables." Such being the case, we question if there be anything in all the long history of Christianity that is more difficult to account for than the fact that that particular fable, concerning the purpose of Christ's mission to the Jewish people, has become the central feature of a system of doctrine which, in this 20th century of our era, has found numerous and zealous advocates amongst orthodox Christians. In view of this extraordinary phenomenon, it surely behooves those who take the Holy Scriptures for their guide and instructor in all matters of faith and doctrine, to search them with the utmost care "whether these things be so." This present volume is the result of a painstaking investigation of that important question.

You may find many of the chapters in his book, here: http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/dispensationalism/

Hope of Israel – Philip Mauro
Not Paying Heed to Jewish Fables – Part 1 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
On the Literal Interpretation of Prophecy – Part 2 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
More on Paul’s insight into the Promises – Part 3 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
The Hope of the Patriarchs – Part 4 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
God’s warnings through Moses – Part 5 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
More on God’s warnings through Moses – Part 6 of ‘the Hope of Israel’
God’s promise to Israel fulfilled through Joshua – part 7 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
Salvation in Zion (the sure mercies of David) – part 8 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
The travail of Zion – part 9 of ‘the Hope of Israel’
The New Covenant – part 10 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
Ezekiel’s prophecies: part 11 the Doom of Jerusalem, the Branch, the Shepherd of Israel and the Valley of Death
Ezekiel’s Temple and the outflow of living waters – part 12 Where did the Spirit descend at Pentecost?


Chapter 7 - is a good one that deals with God's promises to Israel regarding the physical land.
God’s promise to Israel fulfilled through Joshua – part 7 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/gods-promise-to-israel-fulfilled-through-joshua-part-7-of-the-hope-of-israel/

I would like everyone to take a deep breath and read this chapter and pray about the scriptures he presents. I hope we can all continue to strive together for the truth in the unity of the Spirit.

 2015/10/28 9:31









 Re:

I just found the entire book, online so you don't have to buy it unless you just like to have a good old fashioned book in your hands.

http://www.seeking4truth.com/hope.htm

Disclaimer: I know nothing else about this site.

 2015/10/28 9:33









 Re:

Edited: 2 Videos at the end.

Warning: Strong Medicine -

Do we need to review who Christ is and what a Christian is? Do we understand who a Jew is, and what the Church is? That Paul the Apostle never spoke of a military restoration and preservation of land on earth to secular Jews? Even, Orthodox Jews have a big problem with Zionism. Have any of you checked into that?

Jews Against Zionism
http://www.truetorahjews.org/our_mission

There are approximately 70-100 million Christians in America who have been sold this lie and believe in a militaristic Jesus Christ, slaying men, women and children by supporting modern Israel (Palestine, Gulf Wars, Israel) and will at all costs preserve a geo-political, secular land called Israel, no matter who gets in the way.

Now, I understand what that video, "Covenants and Crisis" is all about! People are waking up from their delusion and it is important to keep Christians under guilt so that they continue to support Zionism with their money, and the lives of their young sons. Secular Jews/Zionism wants to keep Christians in their "hip pocket". And Christians want prophecy to be fulfilled. You could say self-fulfilled false prophetic narrative.

2 Thess 2
Who is under a great delusion? You are believing a lie if you believe Jesus and Christians are suppose to support maiming and killing.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Is the Temple of God a building or the Body of Christ, the Church, today? Who is sitting in it, deceiving so many?
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Is the miracle of Israel's regathering really God's doing?
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

What is the love of the truth? Has the Church turned away from it?
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Blessed are the Peacemakers: Do Christian Zionists owe millions of men, women and children who have been maimed and killed an apology? Are they culpable for supporting so many wars against so many nation states?

We cannot say that Jesus, whose Kingdom is not of this world, supports war because the "Christian Church" supports war.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Christian Zionism is part of the religious world system and Jesus Christ is calling you to come out of it, now!

Our salvation (Jew and Gentile, alike) come through sanctification of the Spirit and loving the truth, not Patriot missiles.
14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


15-17 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Because of this state of affairs, one of the greatest shocks that people everywhere will experience when God begins this Judgment will be the number and nature of doctrinal deceptions that are passionately believed to be Bible-based truths which are nevertheless, demonstrable counterfeits of Satan.

Satan quotes scriptures that seem applicable to situations and are not. (Matt 4:6,7)
Satan manufactures false doctrines (1 Tim 4)
Satan has men in pulpits disguised as God's ministers. (2 Cor 11:13-15)
Satan is so persistent that no matter who tells you something (even the Apostle Paul), we are to search the Scriptures to see if these things be so (Acts 17:11).
And to test the spirits of those that teach and prophesy to see if "they are of god" or not (1 Jn 4:1).

Good people can be deceived very badly. And always need very Strong Medicine (TRUTH) to be delivered. In retrospect, this is not really, very strong. I think we need stronger medicine. There are so many 10's of millions, deceived.

WWJK - Who Would Jesus Kill?
WWJB - Who Would Jesus Bomb?

John Hagee with Benny Hinn: Praying For War in the Name of Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70t0IfNglo

Christian Zionism The Tragedy and The Turning, Part I Full Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exLXj9-YQpk


Christian Zionists should apologize to the world.




 2015/10/28 17:13
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Julias, This is disgusting! In no way do I agree with the Christian Zionism of Hagee, Hinn, et al or would even consider being Chrisian Zionist. However just on a non spiritual level, do you really think the problems in the middle east is all the fault of Israel? You don't think Islam has any issue in this, killing Jews, Christians AND each other.

Add to this, how would you like to live alongside Hamas, Hezbollah, etc...
Do you think they want peace. When they've can't get the Jews they get the Christians. Wake up and smell the coffee.
You really have lost the plot if you think all the recent problems and invasions of the region are to help Israel. It is more likely to be OIL.

You are now making fanciful accusations about the Christians (your brothers) who made the film, based on nothing but suspicious and empty fiction. You are now showing your true colours and what spirit you are off. Why would you post this on a thread of Art Katz. Do you think he was a Christian Zionist militant as well?

edit: Wow! I can't believe what you have posted! You said that the film I posted accused Christians, I don't think it did, however this FAR takes the award for being THE accuser of the brethren. You accuse all Christians who support Israel in any way at all of mass killing in the middle east!


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/28 17:56Profile









 Re:

There are different levels and degrees of Christian Zionism. Many of us don't even know how much we may believe until the Lord shows us. I have had to repent of the degree that I was believing the false narrative and prophecies and was a Christian Zionist to some degree. Just believing that the reforming of the "STATE" of Israel is a fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy is enough for one to have his toe dipped into Christian Zionism.

Jesus does not stand behind any physical nation/state, today.

I am Israel, you are Israel. The people over in the land of Israel are not Israel. That is why God said, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (Rom 9:6).

Israel is not geneaological or of a human bloodline, anymore. It is spiritual, a "better country" as Paul states in Hebrews.

Jew and Gentile who have come to the Lord Jesus Christ are the true Israel of God. Not a geo-political nation state. Was it the will of God to bring these people back into the land that is called Israel or the will of the United Nations and Britain? Do you know the history behind it? In Hebrews 4, when they came to the Promised Land with Moses, they could not enter in because of unbelief. Israel's problem is one of sin, not one of having no place/land to live in. God has provided a place to live and it is in His Son, so why would God provide a different place to live, a physical place? Why would God detract from the spiritual, from His Son? It is either Jesus Christ or the physical land of Israel, you can't have both. Jesus is the promise of the Father, not the land. Jesus is the inheritance.

What is your interpretation of Gen 12:1-3 and Gal 3:16? They go quite well together in the KJV. Hint: The word "thee" is very important, because it is singular.

I wish you would watch these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exLXj9-YQpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_Hu1hcsa4

Blessings to you, brother.

P.S. No, I don't know if Art supported Zionism. Did he?

 2015/10/28 18:34









 Re:

I just listened to this one. Excellent and very clear and presents the other side, Dave.

How Christian is Christian Zionism? Stephen Sizer vs. Michael Brown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ0sODvJUuQ

 2015/10/28 18:51





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