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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Adam's Sin

Quote:
What was the punishment for Adam's sin? Physical death, spiritual death or eternal punishment?


Griffo was at a day conference I took earlier this month so I think I know where this question came from. It is not just an academic question but one which may vitally affect our 'walk of faith'. What did Adam do? What effect did it have on the human race? What effects did/does it have on me? Is there a cure?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/11 16:45Profile









 Re: Adam's sin re philologos (city of Adam)

Dear Ron :-) I suspected you might ask this.

Quote:
[size=xxsmall]I was interested too in your reference to Joshua and the crossing of the Jordan. What did you have in mind about the city of Adam?


To answer comfortably, I may appear to ramble and [i]not[/i] to attempt to explain things as you can; I will spread out a few thoughts and scriptures, which you may be able to put more explanation to - or correct me if I'm wrong, please. As this thread has turned a page/screen, here is part of my original post.
Quote:
I'm going out on a limb here, but I hear whispers from the Flood and the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God made Adam and Eve coverings of skins and continued His relationship with them...'

[b]Joshua 3:14[/b] And it cometh to pass, in the journeying of the people from their tents to pass over the Jordan, and of the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people, 15 and at those bearing the ark coming in unto the Jordan, and the feet of the priests bearing the ark have been dipped in the extremity of the waters (and the Jordan is full over all its banks all the days of harvest) -- 16 that the waters stand; those coming down from above have risen--one heap, [b]very far above Adam the city[/b], which [is] at the side of Zaretan; and those going down by the sea of the plain, the Salt Sea, have been completely cut off; and the people have passed through over-against Jericho; 17 and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah stand on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan--established, and all Israel are passing over on dry ground till that all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan. (YOUNG)[/size]


First thing is, I see the historical parts of the Old Testament like a big picture book, where much of what is shown is a series of separate events in slow-mo, so we can understand what is supposed to happen in the Spirit [i]simultaneously[/i] at new birth.

To [b][i]enter[/i][/b] the promised land (which had once been theirs by natural birth), the Israelites had to pass through the flood with Joshua (Jesus) - just like the Red Sea, which is also a type of baptism. The Israelites' departure from Egypt, (death of the firstborn, Passover, crossing the Red Sea, enemies drowned there) all speak of choosing to [i]depart[/i] from slavery and sin - repentance - and redemption; the ransom - the riches bestowed upon them as they departed. Jordan means 'death'. There John the Baptist later baptised the repentant, for the remission of their sins.

The priests (Jesus) were leading the people (descended from Adam), bearing the Ark of the Covenant (Jesus), standing in (the edge of) the water like Jesus when He was baptised, (Romans 6:3), and like 'the earth' as it emerged from the Flood waters, with all 'sin' destroyed. (1 Peter 3:18-22, 2 Peter 3:5,6). Jesus, naturally descended from Adam, is also the second Adam (1 Cor 15:21,22,45-49 Adam/Jesus was formed of the dust of the ground. Jesus was also the Word made Flesh.) Of course the people descended from Adam also benefit from passing through this flooded Jordan, in a type of baptism with Joshua (Jesus).

The [b]city of Adam[/b] seems to have been at least 30 miles from where the Israelites crossed Jordan. Adam (the city) was [i]upstream[/i], adding to the implication it speaks to us of [i]earlier generation(s)[/i] being included in the later work of Christ, and the baptism of Holy Spirit. I realise I can say this only with hindsight! (Genesis 3:15)(Ephesians 2:1-6)

The waters of Jordan reached [i]beyond[/i] the city of Adam. Does this speak of the cleansing of heaven, also? (Hebrews 9) In another thread, you discussed sin 'entering' through Adam - a cosmic event; the effect of Christ's death was also a cosmic event, to redeem the whole creation (Romans 8:19-22).

The water was [i]above[/i] the city of Adam. (Young) This also strongly reminds me of when the first Flood overflowed the earth, rising [i]above[/i] even the [i]mountains[/i] by 15 cubits of water, (symbols of power/authority - in this case, the power of sin, fallen creation). No part of the first (old) creation was missed out by Noah's Flood.

Cities which spring to mind are Haran and Jerusalem. Haran (Lot's father) was Abram's brother who died. The city named after him is where the old man preferred to live and died (that is, their father Terah). (Genesis 11). This answers to the city of Adam.

[b]Hebrews 11:7[/b] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith [b]Abraham[/b], when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he [b]looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God[/b].

Much, much more could be said about Jerusalem, but the imagery is more familiar (perhaps?) and in this connection, the main thing is it gets a wonderful water supply.

[b]Psalm 46:4[/b] A river--its rivulets rejoice [b]the city of God[/b], Thy holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High. (Young)

Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That's why I'm not sure how we can doubt Adam's sin was included in all the sin(s) Jesus died for. But of course, I see we don't know whether Adam wanted to be forgiven. But I feel God's heart towards Adam (the man) cannot be less than it was to Cain, whom He promised to protect from being killed, after Abel's death, (Genesis 4:10-15)

I'm assuming the first Adam takes the chance to get out of jail with all other Old Testament 'believers', after Jesus died. I can see more clearly now why you asked about the 'city of Adam'. It seems remarkable it was in such a place as to be mentioned as a marker for the stretch of Jordan's water on this amazing occasion, if it is of no significance.


 2005/5/11 21:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Dorcas, I have been preaching this for many years but never met anyone else who had even noticed it. I may not dot all your 'i's or cross all your 't's but I have very much the same understanding of the nature of the OT and of the significance of the 'city of Adam'. The KJV says 'far off from the city of Adam' but a better translation is 'at the city of Adam'. Jordan really means the 'descender' but is certainly, in my understanding, a picture of the spiritual death which has 'descended' from the Arch Rebel and ultimately finds its end in the Dead Sea. I have seen another thought in the city of Adam. It seems Christ's death, the entrance of the Ark in the Jordan' cut off the flow of death right back to Adam, but no further. I see an endorsement here that there is no remedy for Satan and his angels but that God's cure does reach right back to Adam. “knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;” (Rom. 6:6, ASV) Right back to the human source, but no further?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/12 4:03Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/12
Posts: 2


 Re: Food for thought

If Christ's sacrifice did not reach back to Adam how is it that Abraham, who was far from sinless and yet was called a "friend of God", was saved? We know that Jesus is the Only Way and yet Abraham is spoken of by Jesus himself in His parable about the rich man and Lazarus.(Luke 16:19-31) Abraham was not in hell. So he being a sinner as Adam was he was obviously acquitted of all charges against him and the blood of Christ alone can do that. Abraham was however a man of faith and he saw Jesus day and was glad as Jesus said. Another reference to consider Romans 4:16. So if it went back to Abraham why couldn't it go all the way back to Adam? Another good reference is - Hebrews 10:11-13 11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (The whole chapter is a good reference) Remember also that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


philologos wrote:
Dorcas, I have been preaching this for many years but never met anyone else who had even noticed it. I may not dot all your 'i's or cross all your 't's but I have very much the same understanding of the nature of the OT and of the significance of the 'city of Adam'. The KJV says 'far off from the city of Adam' but a better translation is 'at the city of Adam'. Jordan really means the 'descender' but is certainly, in my understanding, a picture of the spiritual death which has 'descended' from the Arch Rebel and ultimately finds its end in the Dead Sea. I have seen another thought in the city of Adam. It seems Christ's death, the entrance of the Ark in the Jordan' cut off the flow of death right back to Adam, but no further. I see an endorsement here that there is no remedy for Satan and his angels but that God's cure does reach right back to Adam. “knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;” (Rom. 6:6, ASV) Right back to the human source, but no further?


 2005/5/13 1:00Profile









 Re: Adam's sin re philologos

I have to confess... it was first pointed out by a preacher at a conference studying the book of Joshua. Having said that, it really did strike home in my spirit. Considering all the scripture read aloud and all the words of exposition, this 'the city of Adam' and two other sentences have remained with me to this day, increasing my wonder at the richness of the word of God and its power to enliven a soul.

Quote:
Jordan really means the 'descender' but is certainly, in my understanding, a picture of the spiritual death which has 'descended' from the Arch Rebel and ultimately finds its end in the Dead Sea. I have seen another thought in the city of Adam. It seems Christ's death, the entrance of the Ark in the Jordan' cut off the flow of death right back to Adam, but no further. I see an endorsement here that there is no remedy for Satan and his angels but that God's cure does reach right back to Adam.


Now 'descender' makes more sense of Ephesians 4:9. And, I've now realised the obvious - that the upstream water (on the right) had to pile up while the downstream water would have carried on, leaving an increasing distance between them, as 'death' receded away to their left.

That's interesting... It means they were crossing from the same [i]side[/i] as 'the city of Adam' to the other side, ending up separated from Adam by the floodwaters in both directions. There is also a picture of 'the way' opening up before them, once Jordan had been arrested.

I had always thought Jordan parted in the same way as the Red sea - And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry [ground]: [b]and the waters a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left[/b]. (Exodus 14:22) and that it took courage to walk down that alleyway; but the enemy snapping at their heels, was a strong incentive to give it a go!

The verses below indicate heaven itself was cleansed to God's satisfaction and in Revelation 21, only those in the Lamb's book of life will be admitted to the New Jerusalem. Both these pick up on the 'above' concept, which came from Young's interpretation.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, [b]who hath abolished death[/b], and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; [b]but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us[/b]:

Reading Numbers 19 a few weeks ago, I was struck by the connection between death and the need for a 'baptism'. The uncleanness of death as God perceives it - the result of sin - had never struck home to me before. Now, I think I understand why Jesus was baptised and insisted on it, as in order to abolish death, He had to do something with it - touch it, essentially. Yuck!

So is there a remedy for Satan? Apart from death? It's a very good question.

Maybe the answer lies in the first two chapters of Hebrews (- references to angels -) and Peter's reference to angels desiring to look into matters of salvation; suggesting angels do not have access to the close relationship we have with the Father? (1 Peter 1:10 - 12)

 2005/5/14 0:57
adonaisarmy
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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 Re:

Is it not accepting Christ that causes us to go to Hell or are sin?

Its our sin, sin is not, not accepting Christ, specifically, sin is transgression of Gods law. Therefore, all that are not in Christ, deserve the punishment of Hell. They deserve it not because they havent accepted Christ but because they are a sinner, deserving of hell.

Those that dont ever hear of Christ still deserve Hell. None of us deserve a chance to be saved, and put faith in Christ. We justly deserve the punishment for sin. And the gospel, is a gift, not something all people deserve equally to hear. None deserve it. It is freely given to man, by Gods free grace(unmerited favor)

Jesus said it is better to cut of your right hand, and enter heaven, then hell with two. Its your sin that gets you their.

Dont get me wrong those who reject Christ will also go there. But the differnce is, all will go their, deserve that punishment, because they are a sinner, already.

So what it seems your saying in this statement is only those who reject Christ with go to hell, and i have to disagree, because of my argument above.

"The second death is when those who rejected Christ are cast alive into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and His Angels. They sinned away their day of grace and trod under foot the blood of the covenant that they might sanctified- counting it as an unholy thing. This is the greatest sin of all and warrants the greatest penalty. Eternal seperation from God (Eternal Death)."

Jesus said, just if your hand, foot, eye, causes you to sin, you are in danger of Hell, so NOT ONLY rejecting His Son, is the punishment for Hell.

I do not know everything, but it seems that scripture suppports my argument, and i ask you just think about what ive said. Its a big thing, if you only believe rejecting the savior, is a big enough sin warranting the punishment of Hell, because it seems as if Jesus spoke otherwise.

joshua

 2005/5/21 18:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If Christ's sacrifice did not reach back to Adam how is it that Abraham, who was far from sinless and yet was called a "friend of God", was saved?

I thought we had established the fact that Christ's sacrifice DID reach all the way back to Adam... but no further?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 4:38Profile









 Re: Adam's sin - why hell?

adonaisarmy,

Quote:
Is it not accepting Christ that causes us to go to Hell or are sin?



[b]John 16:8[/b]
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 [b]Of sin, because they believe not on me[/b]; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Because the whole world was concluded under sin,

[b]Romans 3[/b]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

and Jesus took the sin of the whole world,

[b]John 1[/b]
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[b]Romans 2[/b]
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and
longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

and in the end, God has done everything to prevent a person going to hell.

It becomes a circular argument, whether it is the person's sin / sins or their unbelief (sins) for which they are condemned.

 2005/5/26 17:23









 Re: Adam's sin - re philologos - and further?

philologos,

Quote:
I thought we had established the fact that Christ's sacrifice DID reach all the way back to Adam... but no further?



When I first saw your question about 'no further?' I was wondering if you meant 'can Satan be saved by the blood of the Lamb?' although you had not exactly said that. Now, this question has got me thinking about verses in Hebrews 9.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; [b]but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these[/b]. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; [b]but into heaven itself[/b], now to appear in the presence of God for us: (KJV)

This suggests the cleansing of heaven was waiting for the blood of the Lamb, to be completed, yet it was not [i]Adam's[/i] sin which had polluted heaven, it was Lucifer's. Am I right?

If so, [i]'where'[/i] was the Lamb-slain-from-the-foundation-of-the-world, slain? If the tabernacle was a pattern of heavenly things, does this mean there is an altar and a mercy seat in heaven? Sort of ... ?

[b]Hebrews 8[/b]
1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have [b]such an high priest[/b], who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 [b]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle[/b], which the Lord pitched, and not man.

[b]Hebrews 9[/b]
1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].

Is there more scripture to confirm one way or the other?

 2005/5/26 17:30
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Before the feeding frenzy starts let me say that I believe that Christ's redemptive sacrifice is effective for any member of the human race who is willing to receive it. I do not believe that His redemptive purposes include Satan.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/26 18:22Profile





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