SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Adam's Sin

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
Griffo
Member



Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 14


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
The Gen 2:17 warning is literally 'dying thou shalt die'. This is the ultimate death. This spiritual death was illustrated in the later physical death of Adam's body, but the centre of this warning is spiritual death.



Ok, but I find it hard to separate spiritual death from eternal punishment. Although, thinking about it, I suppose that eternal punishment does not invitably follow from spiritual death, rather both are the consequence of sin. But surely eternal punishment is always the penalty of sin? This is certainly how I read verses the wages of sin are death. Would you say that death here is also spiritual death?

 2005/5/10 12:54Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

At the moment we are sort of in a time of amnesty (Praise God), i.e. judgment is yet to take place, otherwise we would physically die the moment we comitted our first sin.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/5/10 13:21Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

hredii
I have been in fairly frequent communication, both publicly and privately, with Jake over the last couple of years. His views are not Christian nor biblical. They are an amalgam of buddhism, rationalism and where it suits biblical texts. He is a pseudo-Quaker believing that his 'witness' is the ultimate test of the biblical revelation. His inner 'light' is darkness and it would not be loving to try to gentle him out of it. Jake thinks I hate him; he is mistaken, but I love truth especially biblical truth and will not stand silent when it is dragged into the mud. My attacks are not against Jake but against his ideas.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/10 13:23Profile
hredii
Member



Joined: 2004/8/1
Posts: 218
Fresno CA

 Re: Adam's Sin

Quote:

Griffo wrote:

What was the punishment for Adam's sin? Physical death, spiritual death or eternal punishment?

There is so much in these first few chapters in Genesis!
In Ephesians 5:30-32 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Quoting Genesis 2:24. So in Genesis 2 we find God's great mystery. In the first 3 verses of the bible we find the Father, Spirit and the Word. In Genesis 3 we find the promise of the Christ. And there is so much more.

Here is part of a tract that I like that shares the fall a little bit.
To fulfill His plan, God made man as a vessel (Rom. 9:21-24). This vessel has three parts: body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). The body contacts and receives the things of the physical realm. The soul, the mental faculty, contacts and receives the things of the psychological realm. And the human spirit, the innermost part of man, was made to contact and receive God Himself (john 4:24). Man was created not merely to contain food in his stomach, or to contain knowledge in his mind, but to contain God in his spirit (Eph. 5:18).
Bit before man could receive God as life into his spirit, sin entered into him (Rom. 5:12). Sin deadened his spirit (Eph. 2:1), made him an enemy of God in his mind (Col 1:21), and transmuted his body into sinful flesh (Gen. 6:3; Rom. 6:12). Thus, sin damaged all three parts of man, alienating him from God. In this condition man could not receive God.

I thought it would be edifying because it shares how the fall affected all three parts of man. What there purposes were before the fall and the result of the fall. It is very general and just touches these points.


_________________
Adam Fell

 2005/5/10 13:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Would you say that death here is also spiritual death?



I would say that would be because 'death' in scripture mainly denotes the idea of [i]separation[/i]. At physical death your soul and spirit seperate from your body. At spiritual death man was seperated from God until a reconciliation could take place. Yet, there was a great offense that must be dealt with as man had sinned against God and become the enemy of God. He yielded to the course of this world and the Prince of the Power of the Air; that 'spirit' now works in them. Man was enemies by wicked works. Man had a propensity to sin and had a list of transgressions and acts of disobedience that deserve a just penalty.

This is why we need a propitiation for our sins. We need the price paid to bring [i]reconciliation[/i] to God. Christ's blood is that propitiation and it is [i]appropriated[/i] by the Holy Spirit to us when we turn to Christ in saving faith. This is the reconciliation that takes away the sting of death and the victory of the grave. The second death is when those who rejected Christ are cast alive into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and His Angels. They sinned away their day of grace and trod under foot the blood of the covenant that they might sanctified- counting it as an unholy thing. This is the greatest sin of all and warrants the greatest penalty. Eternal seperation from God (Eternal Death).

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/10 13:39Profile









 Re:

quote:

"He does not believe the Bible except where he can fit it into his theories."

Continental drift is not my theory.
Increasing complexity of animal fossils in layers of geologic strata is not my theory.
The tremendous similarities of the various groupings of animals -- five toes, five fingers, two eyes, common wiring of central nervous systems, similar vascular systems, similar DNA -- all suggest relatedness of all animals and man. This is not my theory. These are the findings and theories of science that compell rational people to agree with evolution. I also agree. However, this does not compell me to abondon the Bible as it is an extremely important book about mankind's relationship with his Creator. (Early man could not have known anything other than creation.)

The converse of your statement, Ron, is that you do not believe in the findings of science unless they fit with your literalist interpretation of the Bible.

Bubbaguy

PS. By the way, I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) and a Christian.

 2005/5/10 13:50
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Griffo“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.” (John 3:14-21, ASV)I have quoted this passage at length and in the ASV simply because the KJV is a bit inconsistent in its translation of various words relating to the legal process; this should appeal to you. ;-) The passage has the dangers of 'eternal punishment' in view as we can see from 3:16 above. The alternative to 'everlasting/eternal life' is 'perishing' which I take to be as 'eternal' as the life. The question then is who is in danger of this 'perishing'? From the next few verses it appears to be 'him who has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'. Is this the whole heathen world? If the penalty is a result of 'not believing' and, according to Paul, they cannot believe unless they hear, (Rom 10:14) does this mean that whole generations have 'perished' because they did not 'believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God? I know there are many who believe this, many that I respect very highly, but I cannot share this view.

It seems to me that John 3 above is giving us the other side of the coin of “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (John 1:9-12, KJVS) In John 1 we read of those who embraced the testimony of the Son; in John 3 we read of the threat hanging over those who reject this testimony.

In this view 'eternal punishment' would be the consequence of those who consciously rejected the testimony of Jesus Christ. The consequence brought upon us by Adam's sin is nowhere said to be 'eternal punishment' as far as I am aware. “Therefore as by the offence [i]of[/i] one [i]judgment came[/i] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [i]the free gift[/i] came upon all men unto justification of life.” (Rom. 5:18, KJVS) (where the words in italics have been added by the translators and do not form the original text.) The pattern seems clear that what passed to the whole race, as a result of Adam's disobedience, was 'the death'. 'the death' being the death that Adam experienced in the day that he ate of the forbidden tree.

The last verse of in Youngs Literal Translation reads “for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 6:23, YNG) Notice 'the sin' rather than 'sin' or 'sins'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/10 13:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
...all suggest relatedness of all animals and man.



They are related. God created all of them.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/10 13:58Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
I love truth especially biblical truth and will not stand silent when it is dragged into the mud. My attacks are not against Jake but against his ideas.



Here, here. And I wouldn't be overely polite when trying to wrestle someone out of the path of a truck, either.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/10 21:04Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
quote:
..is not my theory.
...
The converse of your statement, Ron, is that you do not believe in the findings of science unless they fit with your literalist interpretation of the Bible.



The issue isn't whether [b]you came up with these theories[/b] or not, but whether you have [b]taken ownership[/b] of them. With regard to the second statement...."And...?"


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/10 21:08Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy