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yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Heydave:

Quote:
I deliberately went through the whole chapter to show that Israel consistently means ethnic Israel here. You cannot change it just because it suits a doctrinal position.


I'm cool if you don't agree with my understanding of Romans 11:26.

However, I just want to point out that your observation regarding the word usage of "Israel" in Romans 11 has a parallel in Romans 9, where Paul consistently uses Israel to refer to "ethnic Israel" except for one instance in Romans 9:6. The meaning of "Israel" thus depends on the surrounding context.

Quote:
I see the modern state of Israel, although in unbelief and imperfect, to be part of God's doing to bring these events to a climax.


I believe that too, as stated in Luke 21:24: "... Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".

Key questions:

(i) What is the purpose of the restoration of national Israel?

(ii) Is this a permanent restoration of Israeli territory to the descendants of Abraham, or will that only happen when Jesus returns (particularly if you believe in a literal millennial reign)?

This is where I don't always agree with many Zionists.

 2015/10/29 11:27Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Julius,
Quote: "I know you don't subscribe to Hagee or Parsley or others like them, but when they pray for physical war regarding Israel's "enemies", something is wrong."

Yes I agree that this is wrong.

Quote: "I don't know how many in your country subscribe to this view but at least 70 million Christians in America seem to subscribe to Christian Zionism and they have no problem sending their sons into physical battle to protect "Israel". Is this why God raised up America?"

I doubt there are 70 million Christians in the USA, let alone Christian Zionist! That's about 25% of the population. Where does this figure come from?
I think there are probably multitudes in America who are not true Christians, but have a 'form of godliness' and pick up on all aspect of Christian theology, distorting it in some way. We should not let our experience and reaction to this form our theology.

Quote: "Yes, in my book, this is the "strong delusion" spoken of in 2 Thess. 2, and I never really understood it, until now."

I don't see how that can be an accurate exegesis of that verse. The context is the anti-Christ in the last days performing signs and wonders to deceive those who do not love the truth. I don't see this happening now, or that those who don't agree with your view don't love the truth. You are reading the current topic into the text in a way it does not make sense.


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/29 12:56Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Yuehan

Yuehan,

Yes I don't always agree with many Zionist either. I think you, like me, want understand what the bible teaches, rather than subscribe to a particular theological camp, be that Zionism, replacement / covenant theology or whatever.

Quote: "(i) What is the purpose of the restoration of national Israel?"

I think (and I probably need to think longer about it) it is tied up to the millennium and the fulfilment of the earth being ruled as a theocracy with Israel serving their God as King of Kings in the Messianic reign of Christ. There are so many Scriptures that talk about the reign of Messiah subduing the nations. Israel was always supposed to be that host nation for the Messiah in this way and it never happened yet.

Quote: "(ii) Is this a permanent restoration of Israeli territory to the descendants of Abraham, or will that only happen when Jesus returns (particularly if you believe in a literal millennial reign)?"

I think ultimately it will only happen when Jeus returns.

What do you think?


_________________
Dave

 2015/10/29 13:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't see how that can be an accurate exegesis of that verse. The context is the anti-Christ in the last days performing signs and wonders to deceive those who do not love the truth. I don't see this happening now, or that those who don't agree with your view don't love the truth. You are reading the current topic into the text in a way it does not make sense.



Isn't the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, considered a "miracle". Don't most people agree that the UN is tool of Satan? Isn't it a strong delusion for Christians to support fleshly war in the name of Jesus Christ? Do you know of another "strong delusion" that is comparable?

"Delusion" - False belief or opinion

Delusional milestone: Pastor Hagee’s Million Christians United For Israel
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2012/04/delusional-milestone-pastor-hagees-million-christians-united-for-israel/

The delusion is that unwittingly, many American "Christians" (Church-goers) are Zionists without even thinking they are. They have been sold the goods that biblical prophecy is fulfilled in the creation of the geo-political state of Israel and therefore they think it is their God-ordained duty to support Israel in whatever means it takes for their "State" to exist. When you think about the people that are represented by the late Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, the late Gordon and Freda Lindsay, then you have covered Baptist and Charismatic populations. And there are still so many other "church goers" that follow their pastor faithfully.

This Israeli General's Son, who is probably not Christian and though he thinks King David might be a myth, still puts all the killing and maiming in perspective. After his niece was killed by a suicide bomb, he began to step back and question what was happening in Israel.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Do you remember the story about the USS Liberty? The government backed media covered it up.
http://beforeitsnews.com/power-elite/2012/03/declassified-israeli-documents-prove-uss-liberty-attack-by-zionist-state-was-intentional-1834987.html

Do you agree with this statement?
United Nations resolution 3013 from 1973 states:
"The struggles of peoples under colonial and alien domination and racist regimes for the implementation of their right to self-determination and independence is legitimate and in full accordance with the principles of international law."

Also, a positive article for Christian supporters of Israel from the Jewish Virtual Library a favorable article regarding Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists (I don't want to be accused of not showing both sides).
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/christianzionism.html

It does give some numbers such as one group, the Moral Majority of Jerry Falwell (6 million members alone and this was many years ago).

Where does a Christian supporter of Israel "draw the line" in their support of Israel. Should they just pray for the peace of Jerusalem and let God take care of the rest, or should they actively be involved financially and politically and militarily?

 2015/10/29 13:28
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5478
NC, USA

 Re:

Dave wrote:
"ultimately it will only happen when Jeus returns."

I am curious as to when you believe the resurrection will take place in relation to the second coming. Do you think we will have our resurrected bodies at that point? If so, does that mean we will be waking around in our new bodies among unbelievers?

I find this discussion pretty fascinating.


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/29 14:28Profile









 Re:

TMK, it is fascinating and the more I dig into it the more I see terribly extreme factions (beliefs) on both sides. Ironic that extremism on both sides would resort to fleshly violence. One extreme side would get rid of Israel and the other extreme side would get rid of the Palestinians. This subject has the potential to draw many into it's murky delusion and the servants of Christ must stay above the fray.

I believe we need to recognize the fulfillment of God's promises in the new covenant in Jesus Christ.
2Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

All spiritual blessing in Christ:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Seated in the heavenlies:
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Inheriting a Spiritual Kingdom:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Php 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship, communmity) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

We have to approach Christ and our walk with Him with a balance of what He has accomplished and what we still anticipate understanding that spiritual truths are being expressed in the scriptures through figurative and metaphorical language. The Holy Spirit uses parables, similes, allegorical examples of the spiritual. Pictorial examples of the physical to express spiritual truths.

Why would Jesus bring us back to an earthly kingdom, fraught with war, hurting other people in the process when His death and resurrection elevated us above everything in this fallen world, to sit with Him in "heavenly places". It just doesn't make sense that He would take us from the physical to the spiritual back to the physical.

The earthly kingdom of Israel right now, breeds pessimism, escapism (Christians), fatalism, cynicism, and a lot of hurt on both sides.

How can the Church of Jesus Christ reach muslims when we prefer one people over another? Are we communicating that Israeli's are more loved by the Christian God than Palestinians? Are we communicating Judaism is better than Islam? Both are false and won't get you to heaven. Again, everything points to Christ and without a Christocentric view of Scriptures you will as JFW says, "fall into a ditch".
https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-strong-delusion-of-%E2%80%9Cchristian%E2%80%9D-zionism/

The Hope of Israel
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/

 2015/10/29 15:34
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Heydave:

Quote:
Quote: "(i) What is the purpose of the restoration of national Israel?"

I think (and I probably need to think longer about it) it is tied up to the millennium and the fulfilment of the earth being ruled as a theocracy with Israel serving their God as King of Kings in the Messianic reign of Christ. There are so many Scriptures that talk about the reign of Messiah subduing the nations. Israel was always supposed to be that host nation for the Messiah in this way and it never happened yet.

Quote: "(ii) Is this a permanent restoration of Israeli territory to the descendants of Abraham, or will that only happen when Jesus returns (particularly if you believe in a literal millennial reign)?"

I think ultimately it will only happen when Jesus returns.

What do you think?


I agree with you on both questions.

Some further thoughts:

1. The promise which God extended to Abraham and his descendants concerning the land of Israel was unconditional, and predates the Old Covenant (Gen 15:18). Who are Abraham's descendants?

Notwithstanding God's purposes for the Jews and the modern state of Israel, I believe the answer is stated in Romans 4:11-18 - Abraham being the father of all who believe, and also the father of many nations.

Hence my take on this issue is that the land of Israel has been given to Christians by God through Abraham. But we do not have the prerogative to take the land by force - there is no need for that, because Christ will reclaim the land Himself when He returns. This especially makes sense if you believe that the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth would be fulfilled literally.

2. The Zionist v.s. anti-Zionist debate tends to focus on the political dimension of things - both sides have an emphasis on defining territorial boundaries, and finding a long-lasting political solution through diplomatic and military efforts.

I can't help seeing a parallel between this and the expectation of 1st-century Jews, who were hoping for a political messiah to remove the shackles of the Roman Empire and re-establish Jewish rule in Israel. Those who harbour similar expectations today will likely face the same disappointment.

In his epistles, Paul was never occupied with political or territorial matters concerning Israel. His overarching concern for the Jews was their spiritual standing with God (Romans 9), and I believe he displayed the mind of God in this matter.

 2015/10/31 13:03Profile





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