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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel

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 Re:

Hi Oracio,

Heaven is new because of the church of the firstborn that is seated with Christ in heavenly places. In other words there is a new thing in heaven that has never happened, hence a new heaven.

Likewise with earth, there is one new man on earth, hence a new earth. Never has there been someone on earth who Christ dwells in. And not just one person but a whole new race of people. New earth.

What helped me to understand "new heaven" and "new earth" was to consider what had taken place in them to make them "NEW".

For instance we are the same old physical body, yet we are considered a “new creation” (Gal. 6:15). Because of Christ we are a "new creature" (II Cor. 5:17) and because of Christ there are "new heavens" and "new earth", now.

And righteousness does dwell NOW, in the "new heaven" and "new earth" through the Redeemed.
“new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (II Peter 3:11,13).

And we are also considered a “new man” (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10), though our outer shell is still old and aging.


Since all Abrahamic promises are fulfilled in Christ, I don't see the point in a new, physical earth.

Look up how "fire" is used symbolically as both a cleansing agent (purifying) and an agent of judgment.



 2015/10/25 0:31
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 617


 Re:

Not all that was promised to Abraham was spiritual:

Genesis 15:12-21

As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

This is our new place in the future, for all the earth shall be dissolved.

2 Peter 3:12-13

As you look forward to and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved and the elements will melt with fire. But in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home.

 2015/10/25 0:50Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks for the reply Julius21. Interesting. I guess I haven't looked that much into the preterist or partial preterist views, hence I was a bit surprised by that interpretation. I understand that that full/hyper preterism is completely heretical as it denies the physical resurrection of believers and the literal Second Coming of Christ.

So let me get this straight, in your view, when Christ comes back He will utterly destroy this earth, judge the wicked and cast them into hell forever, and will raise believers from their graves and give them new physical bodies, and then take them back to heaven?

you wrote:

Quote:
Since all Abrahamic promises are fulfilled in Christ, I don't see the point in a new earth.


I guess to me the point of a new earth correlates with the future bodily resurrection of the saints. From what I've always understood, the present Third Heaven is purely spiritual in nature. Therefore considering that believers will receive new physical bodies it makes sense to me that there would be a new physical earth to house us all.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/10/25 1:06Profile









 Re:

Yeah, Oracio, I am not a Preterist, and could never be one with the way I see God's Word. But, I did find a very interesting and informative video on it that I put in another thread. It was the most I have ever learned about Preterism and it just confirmed my personal view about it.

 2015/10/25 3:34
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Julius,

You know, we have agreed on many things on this forum, but I have to say the things you have stated on this topic leave me perplexed. I cannot see how you can honestly interpret scripture the way you do.

You state that if God was to restore Israel as an earthly nation, He would go against much of His word. In fact the opposite is true! If God does not keep to the promises such as has been shown in Jeremiah 31:35-37 and others then He would contradict His word. You have given no answer of how to reconcile that. Also still have not heard any explanation on the Acts 1 passage where Jesus does implies that the Kingdom will be restored to Israel in God's timing.

More concerning is how you spiritualise every passage that predicts any future physical event. This would include basic truths such as New heaven and earth, a rapture (saints being caught up to God) of any description, a tribulation period. All of which are clearly stated in the scriptures many times. It makes me wonder if you believe that Jesus will actually physically return to earth again as the scriptures teach or do you spiritualise that?

You boldly state that all future prophetic events have been fulfilled. But what you mean is that you have changed the meaning to make it spiritual and not an actual real earthly event. For example the Zechariah 14:1-4. There is no historical basis for this way of interpretation. In mean look at all the prophecies regarding Jesus' first coming that were all fulfilled literally. Where He was born, where He grew up, what tribe He was from, how He died, His betrayal, etc, etc (I could go on and on). This all actually happened. Jesus' prediction of Jerusalem being destroyed by the Romans in AD70 was literally fulfilled. Why now is it that all future prophecy is dismissed as not 'really going to happen' and it has been 'fulfilled spiritually. Of course there is a spiritual truth that applies to Christ and the church in all scripture, but that does not mean that it does not also have an actual fulfilment as well. It is both. Did the Israel cross the Jordan and enter the promised land? However it also speak of a spiritual reality to us who enter into the heavenly rest. But that does not mean it was not also a real life event for Israel (unless you don't believe that either).



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Dave

 2015/10/25 6:05Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Heydave

Heydave wrote

Quote:

If God does not keep to the promises such as has been shown in Jeremiah 31:35-37




Is the 'Day of the Lord' before or after the millennium ?

 2015/10/25 10:56Profile









 Re:

Dave,

Regarding Acts 1:

What is your definition of kingdom? Obviously your definition of the kingdom of God is a physical kingdom. I simply don't think the scriptures teach that.

What is your definition of Israel?
By your statement you think of Israel in terms of a physical race of people distinct from Gentiles. Again, I don't think the scriptures teach that.

As far as "restoration", I think our definitions must also vary on this.

Jesus obviously was not going to get into a long diatribe on what the Kingdom of God really was all about, but He was going to show them. (Kingdom of God is not in word but power). The very next thing He told them was to wait for the promise from the Father of the Holy Spirit.

What does the Holy Spirit have to do with the kingdom of God?

The power of the Holy Spirit will be needed for them to take the gospel of the kingdom to the ends of the earth, once they realize they have been "translated into the kingdom of His dear Son."

The very next time the "kingdom of God" is mentioned in Acts is 8:12, where Philip is preaching concerning the "kingdom of God". And many more times it is mentioned in the book of Acts. They are preaching about something they are becoming quite familiar with.

They knew the kingdom of God had been restored to Israel (I hope we are not confused who Israel is) by their confession and their actions concerning the kingdom.

1Cor 4:20 - for the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. They knew it was all about the spiritual power and authority of Christ in them through the Holy Spirit.

"In them" - "kingdom of God is within you"
What is within them? What was promised to them after they asked, "when will you restore the kingdom?" The Holy Spirit!

After the baptism of the Holy Spirit it all began to make sense to them as the Holy Spirit progressively illuminated them with the truths off the kingdom.

1Cor 15:50 - "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"

You must become a spiritual man (born again) to inherit a spiritual kingdom.

So, with that thought, even if there is a physical kingdom on earth in the physical land of Israel (which now must replace spiritual Israel as we have come to know it), Is a physical Jew going to inherit it or a spiritual Jew? If a spiritual Jew then what happened to spiritual Israel which they already inherited and are a part of? Do we now have two Israel's, one physical and one spiritual? Do we now have two Jews? One spiritual (one new man) and one physical, or is the physical land of Israel now inhabited by all born again believers (spiritual Jews) in the world. The problem with all of this is that God no longer deals with an individual, physical race of men (physical Jews) based on THEIR blood lineage. He only deals with men based on HIS BLOOD!

Why would God transition from the spiritual back to the physical when the whole NT is God transitioning/translating us from the physical to the spiritual (kingdom of His dear Son) raising us up to sit with Him in heavenly places?

To God, the prize is not land, but people. Jesus died for people not earthly real estate. And to the Christian, the spiritual Jew, our prize is not Terra Firma, either. Our prize is Christ.

2 Tim 4:18 describes the kingdom of God as an "heavenly kingdom".

Col 1:13 - Paul says we have been "translated into the kingdom."

So to answer your question, the kingdom has been and is being restored to Israel. Only, they are spiritual Jews in spiritual Israel. You can't blame the disciples in Acts 1 for not knowing how to ask the right question, or being slow too understand God's word through the prophets. That's ok. They came to understand after the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do a study on the kingdom of God in the NT, and you will see how much they came to understand the kingdom of God. And guess what? They never asked that question that they asked in Acts 1:4, again.




 2015/10/25 10:56
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Doc's

Quote:

One major thing though. The gospel and the ministry of Christ revealed and brought to light a mystery not previously revealed. That being the fact the Christ unexpecetly brought the powers of the age to come into this age BEFORE the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord was commonly seen in Jewish thought as the time when the wicked would be purged from the nation and Israel's eschatological enemies finally vanquished by the appearance of the Messiah. Then the Spirit was supposed to be poured out on all mankind. But Christ unexpecetdly brough the pouring out of the Spirit into this age before the next age began (see Hebrews 6:5). We have already tasted of the powers of the age to come. But that doesn't mean the Spirit will not be poured out in the age to come.




Are you implying that you believe that "The day of the Lord" is the beginning of the millennium ?

 2015/10/25 11:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Heydave on 2015/10/25 6:05:59

Julius,

You know, we have agreed on many things on this forum, but I have to say the things you have stated on this topic leave me perplexed. I cannot see how you can honestly interpret scripture the way you do.

You state that if God was to restore Israel as an earthly nation, He would go against much of His word. In fact the opposite is true! If God does not keep to the promises such as has been shown in Jeremiah 31:35-37 and others then He would contradict His word. You have given no answer of how to reconcile that. Also still have not heard any explanation on the Acts 1 passage where Jesus does implies that the Kingdom will be restored to Israel in God's timing.

More concerning is how you spiritualise every passage that predicts any future physical event. This would include basic truths such as New heaven and earth, a rapture (saints being caught up to God) of any description, a tribulation period. All of which are clearly stated in the scriptures many times. It makes me wonder if you believe that Jesus will actually physically return to earth again as the scriptures teach or do you spiritualise that?



Dave, now you are giving me much too much credit.

It was not my idea to spiritualize everything.

I did not invent the:
spiritual jew (Rom 2:28)
spiritual Israel (Rom 9:6, Gal 6:16)
“new creation” (Gal. 6:15)
“new and living way” (Heb. 10:20)
“new covenant” (Heb. 8:13; 9:15; 12:24)
new birth (John 3:3,7)
“newness of life” (Rom. 6:4)
“new Spirit” (Ezek. 36:26)
“new man” (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10)
“new creature in Christ” (II Cor. 5:17)
“new song” (Rev. 5:9; 14:13)
“new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (II Peter 3:11,13).

I have just come to understand that God is a Spirit, we are spiritual men now, that have received a spiritual kingdom and though the physical world is tied to the spiritual world and there are still more physical events to take place, there are far more spiritual things happening. We are by nature "earth bound" and much of the typology in the Bible at first glance is physical because this is our frame of reference, but with the Holy Spirit we are supposed to come to an understanding of what God really means. I don't think everything "at face value" is as it seems, anymore. Jesus changed all that.

The disciples were misinformed in their thinking in asking the question that they asked in Acts 1:4. They did not have spiritual discernment, yet.

The Spirit through Paul tells us that he doesn't speak in words which man's wisdom teaches.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

And also, that the things of God are spiritually discerned.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I am not saying that the way I see things is the absolutely correct way. I am just sharing how I see these things, today. As I receive more illumination from the Holy Spirit, I expect some of these things to change, they always do. A lot of what people say on this forum actually has provided missing links to my understanding and I really appreciate the give and take, here. Please don't take anything I say personally, I can only share what I think I understand. I am completely open to guidance, correction, tuning. I seriously take into consideration everything someone posts and after sitting and thinking about your Acts 1 question, I gave the answer that best resonates with my spirit.

I also agree with so much of what you say, but you don't always want me agreeing with you if I do have some other thoughts, right? I actually covet your correction and instruction. My goal is the truth. I don't think I really have a good handle on Zechariah 14 and am seeking the Lord for some more light.

Interesting take on Zionism: http://littleguyintheeye.com/biblical-studies/end-times/zionism/

 2015/10/25 11:21
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Docs

Quote:

What difference will it make when Christ returns to Isarel and Jersualme from whence He ascended" Where do you believe Christ will return to? It's He that promised to return to the place and nation .




I always thought of the Day of the Lord as a global event that : will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 2015/10/25 12:05Profile





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