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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Proudpapa, you gave me the impression that you were making a case that ' most early christians did not believe in an earthly kingdom for Isreal' and that it was just a recent thing. I showed this was not the case. The reformers, Anabaptist, etc, were not early Christians, certainly when compared to the pre-nicene church Fathers. They are 1200 years after them!

Julias, Why does it have to be either, or? Plan A or plan B? Why can't it be both?


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Dave

 2015/10/23 12:22Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Proudpapa,

With respect, you are mistaken in your reading of Acts 2. It certainly was a conversation that took place at the time just before Jesus ascended to heaven. Read verse 9 "Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight" .

It cannot be more clear in telling us when these things were spoken! :)


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Dave

 2015/10/23 12:31Profile









 Re:

I don't see any widespread belief in dispensationalism before the 19th century. It is widely believed to have started with Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.

I also don't see in scripture where God has an earthly people now, along with a heavenly people.

The Kingdom of God is not earthly and no earthly Kingdom is in the works.

 2015/10/23 12:59
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: heydave

I am currently in a place of transition from my previously held position of historic premillennialism to that of a NonChiliast position.
Having formally held a historic premillennialist view I was of the understanding that the pre-nicene church Fathers where chiliast but much different in there understanding from Darby Dispensationalism that is widely held today.

The foundation of Darby Dispensationalism is the role of physical Israel in Prophecy.
My understanding thus far is that that view was not held by most of the early Christians, the Anabaptists, the Reformers, and in fact most Christians before the 19th century. That seems to be the understanding of Bercot who has dedicated years of studing the pre-nicene church Fathers in there context.

I want to get this download : What the Early Christians Believed About Israel in Prophecy.
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product2814.html


edit add : RE: /// It certainly was a conversation that took place at the time just before Jesus ascended to heaven.///

I was not trying to refute that.
I was pointing out that Acts 1 is the introduction to Acts 2.


 2015/10/23 13:12Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Nobody was talking about Darby and dispensationlism here, so plesse don't confuse the issue. The discussion as I understood it was about does Israel as a nation still have a place in God's plan. You don't have to be a Darby dispensationlist to think they do.

About God not being a respecter of person, that is not strictly true is it? He does respect certain nations and in particular He chose Israel above all nations of the earth. Individuals may be not, but nations certainly He did choose between.


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Dave

 2015/10/23 13:36Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Heydave

RE: ///Nobody was talking about Darby and dispensationlism here, so plesse don't confuse the issue. The discussion as I understood it was about does Israel as a nation still have a place in God's plan. You don't have to be a Darby dispensationlist to think they do.///

I think that this is indeed the heart of the issue, Why we interput the Scripture the way that we do.

My research thus far seems to conclude that Justin Martyr
believed that it is the Christians that shall inherit the holy land.

add: I do not think Justin Martyr was a Christian zionist. (I am finding just the opposite) I am not finding that any of the pre-nicene fathers where Christian zionist

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO :
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 2015/10/23 14:42Profile









 Re:

I believe the scriptures teach that God has completed His work with Israel as a physical nation on earth. Previously, I listed many verses where God had fulfilled all His promises to Israel.

I might have missed them and my apologies if I have but did someone list scriptures indicating a future building of an earthly nation of Israel?

Point taken about Darby, HeyDave. I think PP already mentioned it, anyway.

 2015/10/23 14:45
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

It does not help to use labels such as 'Christian Zionist' and 'Dispensationlist'. It just puts people into boxes as if one catorgorise all their views, when all they are seeking to do is consider what is truth. I don't consider myself either of these, but they can mean different things to different people.

No one has suggested an answer to for why Jesus replied to the disciples the way He did in Acts 1 when He said "it is not for you to know the times or season" when God will restore the kingdom to Israel.
I thought PP originally suggested that Jesus did not say this at the point of His ascension, but then then said he did not say this, anyway that is clearly not correct, so that leaves the question open?

Julias, I will come back to you later with the many scriptures that say Israel has a future, when I have time to do this.


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Dave

 2015/10/23 16:52Profile









 Re:

Ok, that's great Hey Dave. I will work on the Acts 1 scripture and get back to you. Very interesting discussion. I agree about not putting people in boxes as that is not my intention.

 2015/10/23 17:11
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Heydave

Heydave wrote : RE: ///No one has suggested an answer to for why Jesus replied to the disciples the way He did in Acts 1 when He said "it is not for you to know the times or season" when God will restore the kingdom to Israel.
I thought PP originally suggested that Jesus did not say this at the point of His ascension, but then then said he did not say this, anyway that is clearly not correct, so that leaves the question open?///

PP wrote : RE: ///The question is not being asked in Acts 1. Luke is simply recalling how the question was asked of Jesus in the past. The context is that it is part of Lukes introduction for what is fixing to take place in chapter 2///

What I was trying to say was that Acts 1 is the indroduction for Acts 2.
Luke is recalling past conversations that occured before and after the Ascension acts ch 1 1-11

Acts Chapter 1 Verses 4 and 5 are fulfilled in Acts 2.

And with that in mind I posted Both what Wesely and Peoples said about verse 6 :

Wesley's Notes for Acts 1:6
1:6 Dost thou at this time - At the time thou now speakest of? not many days hence? restore the kingdom to Israel? - They still seemed to dream of an outward, temporal kingdom, in which the Jews should have dominion over all nations. It seems they came in a body, having before concerted the design, to ask when this kingdom would come.

People's Bible Notes for Acts 1:6
Ac 1:6 Wilt thou at this time, etc.? They still held to their old ideas of a worldly restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Their only question was, "Wilt thou restore it 'now'"? After the Holy Spirit was given, this delusion was dismissed, and they understood that Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

Do you understand my point ?

add : "Wilt thou restore it 'now'"? After the Holy Spirit was given, ((Acts 2)) this delusion was dismissed, and they understood that Christ's kingdom is not of this world." :












 2015/10/23 18:01Profile





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