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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel

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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


RE: ///I may be a bit getting back to you in more depth but I will try soon///

I look forward to your thoughts and getting a better understanding of your position.

 2015/10/22 10:11Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388


David- how do you know that when God made his promise to Abraham that he (God) didn't have the Church ultimately in mind?


 2015/10/22 11:04Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2033

 Re: Abraham and the Church

TMK: David- how do you know that when God made his promise to Abraham that he (God) didn't have the Church ultimately in mind?

Docs: I do believe that. The Abrahamic promises are only obtainable through Christ.

26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

If God puts His Spirit within them then they will be part of the Church because the Church is the only entity on earth that has the Spirit dwell within each individual member. To have the Spirit within they will have had to place their faith in Christ. I believe God had this in mind when He first spoke to Abraham. If this is true why isn't the "You will live on the land that I gave to your forefathers" also true? How would living on this land, in Christ and with the Spirit within, be erecting a wall of partition again between Jew and Gentile since the blessings coming from this would fill the whole earth?


David Winter

 2015/10/22 11:17Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


Am I understanding you correctly ? are you of the understanding that verse 26 and 27 of Ezekiel chapter 36 is fulfilled through Christ in this present dispensation but believe that there is a dispensational gap between versus 27 and 28, In which verse 28 : "You will live on the land that I gave to your forefathers" will not be fulfilled untill the millennial dispensation ?

Could it be possible that there is not a Gap and that versus 26-28 where all fullfilled at the same time ?

Could that be what these versus are referring to ? :

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels Heb 12:22

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4

add : Or are you of the impression that 26-28 is only addressing physical Israel in the millennial dispensation ?

 2015/10/22 12:13Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2033

 Re: Not much time today

Thanks proudpapa again for your thoughts. I just don't have much time tonight but heck, replies don't always have to come immediately. It's fun and perhaps wise to muse a bit and let things percolate you know before answering.

One short thought.

You quoted,

"Jesus said of the leaders of Nation of Israel in his day: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Did that mean He was forever through with them though? He also said,

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me UNTIL you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matt 23:37-39 - NASB)

There is a strong implication of a day and time to come when they will say of Christ, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." After the UNTIL.

What difference will it make when Christ returns to Isarel and Jersualme from whence He ascended" Where do you believe Christ will return to? It's He that promised to return to the place and nation He left. Will this have any significance for Israel and set them apart in any way? If Christ returns to Israel will this be showing respect of persons and partiality?

Blessings. I'll get back at you.

David Winter

 2015/10/22 20:36Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


Docs, You have me searching the Scriptures.

RE: ///It's He that promised to return to the place and nation He left.///

Could you give the Scriptures that you are referring to ?

 2015/10/23 0:22Profile


The people of Israel in the Old Covenant compared with the Church in the New Covenant serve as various types, shadows, prefigurements and illustrations. Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5

The Jewish people were not abandoned by God anymore than any other people were (Rom 11:1), and the Christian people are a fulfillment of the people of Israel. There is a continuity of the "faith of Abraham", now expressed in the Gentiles (and Jews) through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore there is a continuity of the "Israel of God". Neither Jew nor Greek, but one new man in Christ.

The comparative designation of Christians is also "Israel". "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" (Rom 9:6)

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:16) The "Israel of God" are all those who have the life of Christ indwelling them.

There is no longer any continuity with an external, physical Jewish nation.

The labels of Old Covenant Israel are now applied to those who are born from above:

1. Christians are known as the Children of God (Jn 1:12; Rom. 8:14; Phil. 2:15; I Jn. 3:1)
2. Christians are the children of Abraham (by faith) (Rom. 4:11,16; Gal. 3:7,29)
3. Christians are the Heirs according to the promise and of the kingdom (Gal. 3:29; James 2:5)
4. The Church is considered the House of God (Eph. 2:12,19; Heb. 3:6; 10:21; I Pet. 4:17)
5. Christians inhabit the Kingdom of God (Col. 1:13; 4:11; Rev. 1:6)
6. Christians are the People of God (Rom. 9:25; Eph. 5:3; Titus 2:14)
7. Christians are Priests unto God (I Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10)
8. The Church is the Bride of God/Christ (II Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:31,32)
9. The Church is the Chosen People (Col. 3:12; I Pet. 2:9)
10. The Church is the Circumcision (Rom. 2:28,29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11)
11. Christians are the People of Zion, Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 21:10)
12. The Church is the Remnant (Rom. 11:5)
13. The Church is Israel (Rom. 9:6; Gal.6:16)
14. Christians are true Jews (Rom. 2:28,29)

Christians only become any of the beforementioned things because of faith in Jesus Christ who is the personified fulfillment of the promises of God to Israel.

Our identification with Israel can only be viewed in one way, with Christ as the center. We serve as Israel only as we are "in Christ" and He "in us". If Christ is not living and functioning in us we are not regarded as the Israel of God. The title of "Israel" is a spiritual designation now, related to abiding in Christ. There is no longer any biblical basis for assuming that the physical, geographical nation of Israel has anything to do with Biblical prophecy.

Israel today is not Israel of old. The name "Israel" was chosen deliberately to connect modern Israel with ancient Israel, but modern Israel is a 20th century world political organization, it is not Biblical Israel and has no claim to any promises or rights of Biblical Israel. Modern Israel is just like any other nation on earth and just like every other nation on earth, modern Israel cannot be considered a chosen nation with divine destiny. If modern Israel ceased to exist it would not alter Biblical prophecy one iota. God's unchangeable character and faithfulness is not dependent on the changeableness of man's politics and warfare. Nations will come and nations will go, but God will never change.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Only the spiritual nation of Israel is eternal! Israel is only a spiritual nation of blood bought saints!

When you read about Israel in the NT, Israel is spiritual.

 2015/10/23 0:55

Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK


ACTS 1:6-7.
"Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
"And He (JESUS)said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

I find this very interesting question and answer. The disciples who had been with Jesus every day for 3.5 years still seemed to have the understanding that the Kingdom would at some point be restored to Israel. You would have thought that if this major prophetic plan that was the foundation of the Jewish nation for years had been changed then Jesus would have made that very clear to them during those years. Even more, here was the ideal opportunity for Jesus to correct their thinking about it, but instead He just says in essence, 'It's not for you to know when this will happen'.

Clearly, if you or I were one of those Jewish disciples there on that day, we would have not taken it any other way than He meant it WOULD happen sometime in God's timing!

Where did Jesus ever state that all those many, many prophecies in the OT that speak clearly of a future earthy Kingdom of Israel were now redundant? I don't know anywhere.

It seems to me that if God spoke in times past and said that certain things would come to pass and they don't, it is a slur on God's integrity. He would be saying in effect 'I've changed my mind' or 'well, it did not quite work out as I said it would'. I don't believe this is right.

Regarding the early church, it is incorrect to say they did not believe in a millennium kingdom on earth. The early Church Fathers did believe in a millennium Kingdom. This view only changed later when the church had drifted away from it's roots. The accepted view of the pre-nicene church fathers was pre-millennial.
For example: Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

and also this.... "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue, chapter 81).

Irenaeus (AD160-230) was a disciple of Polycarp who knew the Apostle John said "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth, and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 36, paragraph 3).


 2015/10/23 4:17Profile


Jesus did not come to establish an earthly Kingdom. The Jews always believed the Messiah would come to establish one. God does not have an earthly people (Jews) and a heavenly people (Christians).

The Church is not an "interim" solution, or Plan B, until Plan A can be carried out.

For God to restore physical Israel, He would have to go against much of what He said in the Scriptures.


There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS. (Jos 21:45)

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, AND NOT ONE THING FAILED THEREOF. (Jos 23:14)

Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath NOT FAILED ONE WORD OF ALL HIS GOOD PROMISE, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant. (1Ki 8:56)

And so, after he had patiently endured, HE OBTAINED THE PROMISE. (Heb 6:15)


And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44)

After this, JESUS KNOWING THAT ALL THINGS WERE NOW ACCOMPLISHED, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (John 19:28)

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE UNTO THE FATHERS: (Rom 15:8)

All Messianic promises were fulfilled in Christ. His mission was not to develop an "elect people" or create a physical kingdom for Israel.

His primary objective was completed which was to restore men to the Father, by the indwelling presence of God in man.

 2015/10/23 9:46

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: Heydave

ACTS 1:6-7.
"Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
"And He (JESUS)said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

The question is not being asked in Acts 1.
Luke is simply recalling how the question was asked of Jesus in the past. The context is that it is part of Lukes introduction for what is fixing to take place in chapter 2

Wesley's Notes for Acts 1:6
1:6 Dost thou at this time - At the time thou now speakest of? not many days hence? restore the kingdom to Israel? - They still seemed to dream of an outward, temporal kingdom, in which the Jews should have dominion over all nations. It seems they came in a body, having before concerted the design, to ask when this kingdom would come.

People's Bible Notes for Acts 1:6
Ac 1:6 Wilt thou at this time, etc.? They still held to their old ideas of a worldly restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Their only question was, "Wilt thou restore it 'now'"? After the Holy Spirit was given, this delusion was dismissed, and they understood that Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

Add : Did any one write that there where no millennialist before the 19th century ? I do not believe I wrote that because that was not my understanding.

 2015/10/23 11:44Profile

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