| A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel|
This is an honest question. I've often heard that if the millennium exists and Israel has a place of headship among the nations that this is buidling again a wall of partition again between Jew and Gentile. How so is my question? It's said that it would not be fair for God to exalt the Jewish nation over other nations after God made Jew and Gentile one in Christ with equal access to the Father. How would this "exaltation" of Israel being over the nations perhaps be lording it over other people and nations and building dividing walls again? I believe the scriptures portray just the opposite but I'm asking for answers from those who believe it would be building dividing walls again. What is your reasoning for this?
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:14-22 - NASB)
Part of my question and thoughts are, have Gentiles forgotten that when they became believers in Christ and part of the commonwealth of Israel (true Israel within Israel) that they were then participating in promises and covenants made to the Jewish commonwealth? How would Christ returning to earth and ruling the nations from Jerusalem during a millennium nullify the one new man He created in Himself? Foreigners and strangers have always been allowed to join Israel since OT times and scripture states it will be so during what I believe will be the millennium. But the bottom line is, if Israel becomes a servant head to the nations following the example of the Messiah they will then believe in how will this be creating new walls of division and destroying the one new man? The whole earth will be able to partake of Israel's blessing in that day so how will the Gentiles be shortchanged and placed back in a position of supposed inferiority? I don't see it as so because the whole foundation is a covenant made with the Jews to begin with.
I'm not interested in if or maybe the millennium will actually exist. I believe it will. I'm not interested in the debate whether the thousand years of Revelation is symbolic or not. My question is, if the millennium will indeed exist then how would that be setting up walls of partition again and nullifying the one new man in Christ? I don't buy that it will because there is no unrighteousness in God. The restoration of the remnant of the natural branches, in Christ and within specified geographical borders, is portrayed as an event that will be life from the dead whose blessings stagger the imagination even now and was part of the orginal promises and covenants made to Israel. It's what the Gentiles signed in to when they became part of the commonwealth of true Israel by faith. How could this restoration of the natural branches in Christ be building walls again?
Comments welcome but if you want to be contentious please give it a rest and just forego. Sound, reasoned and well thought out replies are welcome. Remember we are going to spend eternity with one another. I've failed in the past but there's no need to go at each other. It's possible to talk and dialogue decently and with respect. The faith we have works by love.
| 2015/10/21 13:24||Profile|
| Re: A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel|
I just recieved this week : "My Beloved Israel by Steve Yoder, excelent book, I would highly recomend it to everyone. It is recomended by David Bercot an expert on early church history.
'Steve Yoder. In this well-researched book, Yoder discusses the Old and New Testament prophecies about Israel. He sets forth and defends the prophetic view held by the early Christians, the Anabaptists, the Reformers, and in fact all Christians before the 19th century. He describes the persecution of the Jewish people by “Christian” governments and their inhuman treatment by Hitler. He also explains the history of the Zionist movement that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel. He argues that there is only one Israel of God—comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ.'
I will discuss this more later but got to go to work now
| 2015/10/21 14:16||Profile|
| Re: A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel|
The Idea that the physical nation of Israel has a place of headship among the nations in the future is a view that was not held by most of the early Christians, the Anabaptists, the Reformers, and in fact most Christians before the 19th century.
Darby through Scolfield the same stream that popularized the pretrib rapture is the same stream that has popularized the idea of : "physical nation of Israel has a place of headship among the nations in the future "
Jesus said of the leaders of Nation of Israel in his day: “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Whom is this nation that the Kingdom is given to ? Peter tells Us : But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;.....
Yoder writes on p.22 : "He (Jesus) always condemned them and their system and as far as we know He never regressed on His actions in any way...."
Lets remember the Bible clearly says that God is not a respecter of persons.
The idea that the physical nation of Israel (because of the race of there flesh) has a place of headship among the nations in the future is a view that goes against the understanding that God is not a respecter of persons as well as Pauls arguement in Romans 9-11 that clearly makes the point that : 'They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Who are the children of the promise ? : Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
to be continued
| 2015/10/21 21:35||Profile|
| Racism is done away with in the Body of Christ |
RE: /// but I'm asking for answers from those who believe it would be building dividing walls again. What is your reasoning for this?///
Racism is done away with in the Body of Christ :
'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'
'Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all. '
'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.'
' Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
to be continued
| 2015/10/21 22:25||Profile|
Whittier CA USA
| Re: Racism is done away with in the Body of Christ |
| 2015/10/21 23:41||Profile|
| Re: |
RE: ///Part of my question and thoughts are, have Gentiles forgotten that when they became believers in Christ and part of the commonwealth of Israel (true Israel within Israel) that they were then participating in promises and covenants made to the Jewish commonwealth?///
Physical Israels role as the commonwealth was done away with.
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
We have a 'better covenant, (an everlasting covenant) which was established upon better promises.'
| 2015/10/22 0:13||Profile|
| Re: |
Quote: "Part of my question and thoughts are, have Gentiles forgotten that when they became believers in Christ and part of the commonwealth of Israel (true Israel within Israel) that they were then participating in promises and covenants made to the Jewish commonwealth? "
Quote "He argues that there is only one Israel of God—comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ.'
Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ
When God made some of the promises to Abraham and his seed, the nation Israel didn't exist.
Now i want to briefly look at Calvary. Jesus' sacrifice was 100% perfect, He drank the whole cup , all the sins were put on Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Ephesians 4:5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.…
Therefore i most strongly believe that there will be only one kingdom and one King, the Lord Jesus Christ and everyone in His kingdom is a new creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Jesus alone is worthy to be King and he does not share His Glory !
| 2015/10/22 3:48|
| Re: |
I am afraid if you can't find people here who agree with your premise, you won't get the discussion you are looking for.
The verses from Ephesians you quoted indicate that all believers comprise the holy temple and God's dwelling place, so I am wondering if you believe that temple worship will be reinstated in the literal millennium you think is forthcoming.
I can tell you that years ago when I believed in a literal millennium etc that the idea of reinstituted temple worship with animal sacrifices to boot really bugged me.
| 2015/10/22 7:46||Profile|
| Re: Briefly to TMK|
Actually I'm looking for those who may disagree with me as I'm trying to understand better the foundational reasons as to why they disagree. Particularly why if Israel became the head of the nations why this is somehow erecting a wall of partition again and disrupting the one new man. Yes the commonwealth of Israel is now the spiritual seed of Abraham who believe in Christ but believing Gentiles became part of the covenants made with this believing Israel. So why now are some of the promises made to Abraham supposedly no longer valid because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. These promises are part of what Gentiles signed in to.
The temple controversy, and controversial it is, is secondary to my question of why a regenerated and restored Israel becoming a priestly servant nation and washing the feet of the nations would be a disruption of the one new man.
| 2015/10/22 9:40||Profile|
| Re: Thank you proudpapa|
I may be a bit getting back to you in more depth but I will try soon. I have read your comments and will again. I may get that book "My Beloved Israel" you have spoken of. I might do that soon.
Yu said Yoder has written,
"He argues that there is only one Israel of God—comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ."
I believe that also. Yet if Israel, emptied of nationalistic self conceit and reliance on their own strength versus God's, and redeemed in Christ, became a servant to the nations under the headship of Christ then how is this destroying the one new man? If one member of this one new man (bless God for this man!)is honored then aren't all members honored? If one member is honored shouldn't all memebers rejoice? I spoke once to a felow Christian about what I believed would be Israel's future as a redeeemd nation and he said that can't happen because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. That is what I don't understand.
Thanks to the others also who have responded.
| 2015/10/22 9:52||Profile|