| Re: |
Yes I agree there are in fact several things God cannot or will not do, having said that He Himself is eternal and abides in eternity and not in time as we know it. While this may seem to us to infer that He must know what will happen but I don't find that the scriptures always say this is so. For example like Christopher said our choices affect the future, God gave Adam the ability to name the animals but it doesn't suggest that God knew what Adam would name them... also Adam was created as an eternal being and had the perspective that corresponded with God tho still was given tasks "in time", so as a potential God could know all the possible outcomes but I can't find in scripture that He did know the precise outcomes except in areas of prophecy.
As I understand it, time in the linear sense is a human construct and does not actually exist, or one could say is a by product of the fall of Adam.
Time as we know it seems to be very much bound up with our perspective.
For example when a 5 yr old has a birthday he only has himself as a frame of reference and so has lived 1/5th of his life over again,... whereas when a 40 yr old has a birthday it's only 1/40th of his life and so would seem to occur faster in reference to himself (cumulative experience) however when Christ is our frame of reference this changes everything as He is eternal and as we abide in Him and are conformed into His image we more and more partake of His perspective of eternity "in time".
| 2015/10/20 20:31||Profile|
| Re: The Future and Prophecy|
"The phenomenon of Biblical prophecy rises out of a profound philosophy of history that by means of the prophetic unction interprets its past, illumines its course, and predicts its ultimate goal."
"Whether for salvation or judgment, the future is already "at hand."
"In prophetic perspective, the future is shaping the present rather than the reverse. This is why the powers of the eschatological future in both judgment and salvation are ever penetrating the contemporary circumstance as men are brought into encounter with God’s future through the word of prophecy. Whether for salvation or judgment, the future is ever “at hand.”
"The imminence of the prophetic future initiates a crisis of decision, not on the basis of chronological proximity, although, because of the nature of existential proximity to eternity, such expectancy would not be inaccurate. Rather, there is a constant proximity that all persons have to the end that justifies the concept of an “existential imminence” in the sense of the moral and spiritual claims contained in the inexorable approach of God’s future. Hence, unfaithfulness will draw near the judgment of the great day as will righteousness its salvation."
"Note: An ever present existential proximity to the end is to be distinguished from an eventual chronological imminence that becomes true only in the presence of definitely foretold signs as seen in Jesus’ Olivet prophecy (Mt 24) and Paul’s little apocalypse of 2Thes 2:1-8."
(From article "The Hebraic View of Prophecy" - Reggie Kelly)
Just a little 2 cents from me that might add a little to the discussion.
| 2015/10/20 20:58||Profile|
| Re: |
Wow! That is good,
Never thought about it that way before-
Thanks brother David for those 2 cents;)
| 2015/10/20 21:13||Profile|
| Re: |
When it comes to prophecy, can it not be said that God causes certain things to come about versus Him "seeing" the future?
In other words, God gave prophetic vision for things He planned to do?
| 2015/10/20 21:57||Profile|
| Re: The word can speak to this I think|
1) Isaiah 41:21-24
21 "Present your case," the Lord says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," the King of Jacob says.
22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, that we may consider them and know their outcome; or announce to us what is coming.
23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward, that we may know you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.
24 Behold, you are of no account, and your work amounts to nothing; he who chooses you is an abomination."
2) Isaiah 42:8-9
8 "I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.
9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."
3) Isaiah 43:9-13
9 All the nations have gathered together in order that the peoples may be assembled. Who then can declare this and proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, or let them hear and say, "It is true."
10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.
11 "I, even I am the Lord; and there is no Savior besides Me,
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And I am God."
13 "Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
4) Isaiah 44:6-8
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.
7 'And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; yes, let him recount it to me in order, from the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming and the events that are going to take place.
8 'Do not tremble and be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses, is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock?" I know of none.'"
5) Isaiah 44:24-45:5
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone,
25 Causing the omens of boasters to fail, making fools out of diviners, causing wise men to draw back, and turning their knowledge into foolishness,
26 Confirming the word of His servant (the prophetic word spoken beforehand), and performing the purpose of His messengers. It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again. (Prophecy before it happens.)
27 "It is I who says to the depths of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry.
28 "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire. And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built.' and of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.' "
1 Thus says the Lord to Cyrus His anointed, whom I have taken by the right hand, to subdue nations before him, and to loose the loins of kings; to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut;
2 "I will go before you and make the rough places smooth; I will shatter doors of bronze, and cut through their iron bars.
3 And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden wealth of secret places, in order that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel My chosen one, I have called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you though you have not known Me.
Note: Who but God could have declared beforehand that Cyrus would be the one who issued a decree that would allow the Jews to return from Babylon to their land and rebuild Jerusalem and the temple? We see that the Lord openly and plainly declared it through prophecy 150 years before it happened. (See above Isaiah 44:28-45:1, Ezra 5:13, 17, 6:3).
More regarding Cyrus below:
7) Isaiah 45:11-13
11 Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker. Ask me about the things to come concerning My sons, and you shall commit to Me the works of My hands.
12 "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host.
13 "I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make all his ways smooth; he (Cyrus) will build My city and will let My exiles go free, without any payment or reward," says the Lord of hosts.
8) Isaiah 46:8-11
8 "Remember this and be
assured; recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, My purpose will be established, and I will accompany all My good pleasure;
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken and I will bring it to pass, I have planned it, surely I will do it."
9) Isaiah 47:1-7
1 "Hear this O house of Jacob, who are named Israel and who came forth from the loins of Judah, who swear by the name of the Lord and invoke the God of Israel, but not in truth nor in righteousness.
2 "For they call themselves after the holy city, and lean on the God of Israel; the Lord of hosts is His name.
3 " I declared them to you long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted and they came to pass.
4 "Because I know you are obstinate, and your neck is as iron sinew, and your forehead bronze,
5 Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I declared them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol has done them, and mt graven image and my molten image have commanded them.'
6 "You have heard; look at all this. And you, will you not declare it? I proclaim to you new things from this time, even hidden things which you have not known.
7 "They are created now (called into being by the prophetic word) and not long ago; and before today you have not heard them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
Great day I hope I haven't over did this by these references. I just happen to have compiled them and have them on hand. It's not my thread or subject but maybe it helps. It's a very fascinating subject. If I understand your question correctly TMK, my reply would be that, in my opinion, God does indeed "see the future" and can accurately prophesy regarding it because He is well able to bring it about just as He has planned and spoken. So I would say with the article, the future God sees and has prophesied about is controlling the present and not vice versa.
Apologies again if I've posted too much.
| 2015/10/20 22:32||Profile|
| Re: |
I appreciate your input.
There is a problem with simply stating that God "sees the future" which is why He is able to prophecy and do things to bring it about. The problem is magnified if the future is "settled."
"Seeing the future" is a different concept than having the power and knowledge to CAUSE the future.
Perfect prescience would seem to be a miserable condition, for any intelligent being. An individual with perfect prescience would be subject to the tedium of merely existing; perfect and total foreknowledge of every event, every movement, every heartbeat of every creature in existence would indeed be miserable.
I know I am probably not making myself clear, because I am not 100% sure what I am trying to say. But if the future is "settled" now, and exists now, then God is in essence watching a movie in which he knows every scintilla of dialogue and every bit of action.
This problem disappears if the future does not exist now.
| 2015/10/21 8:31||Profile|
| Re: |
JFW: Go ahead brother.
| 2015/10/21 8:31||Profile|
| Re: |
TMK: I think we are seeing it the same way. He sees the consequences of every choice we make. However, He still leaves the choice (turn right or left) up to us. I believe God knows what will happen if I make choice A or choice B for however many infinite iterations of future choices that one choice leads to, if you get my drift. He is all knowing. He sees the future of every choice I may make, yet He leaves that choice up to me. That is why the rat in the maze makes sense to me. It demonstrates God's omniscience, but allows for my own free will, which is what I believe is happening.
| 2015/10/21 8:35||Profile|
| Re: |
I agree Travis- I think.
Knowing all possible consequences is subtly different than knowing the future outright. It is a thin line, but one that I can live with.
| 2015/10/21 9:32||Profile|
| Re: |
This is one of my favorite topics. Years ago I started thinking on it a lot. Not to try and figure out God but just thinking.
And, it occurred to me (incorrectly in most of my thinking it out, I'm sure!) that each and every "something" that is, regardless of how small it is, is known by God. He knows it, He knows where it is, He knows everything about, and He knows everything about what it will ever do and be. Every change of form. Every movement. Every ---- everything.
Think of each of these "somethings" where is, as is, and you can imagine on some level the scope of God's knowledge. By the time you have that thought, every one of those somethings changed somehow.
Think of each potential change in a something as its own strand flowing off that something. Now, think of all the somethings and all of the potential changes of each something as continuously moving strands. Strands joining. Strands falling away into nothingness. To our mind, it appears as chaos. To our Creator, it is a composition of immense pleasure to Himself, an opus of praise unto Himself.
As the strands in our mind's image flow, as changes occur to every something in real time, there are other strands of other possibilities that did not occur. Because they did not occur, they are not real. They would disappear from this imagined, perpetual dance of strands.
The actual somethings and their possibilities are real in different ways to one another. But as time as we know it passes, and the possibilities become actualities in the physical sense, all other possibilities for that something that existed prior to that point in real time disappear from the dance of things.
How can God not know each and every bit of these somethings and each and every possibility and also each and every eventual reality in time of each?
| 2015/10/21 10:06||Profile|