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 Re:

If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.

2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The principle of giving is as a man purposes in his own heart, not as another man dictates for him to give.

The church is the people of God not a religious organization. I am not worried about Christians giving and in fact it's none of my business but what we all should be watching out for are people bringing mixture into the faith.

Again, if there is a such thing as a NT tithe, where is the apostles teaching on this? This is a major doctrine of many religious organizations today. Where is the scripture witnesses and the transition teaching?

Is it ok to give chickens and vegetables? Or is it 10% of net pay or is it gross pay and are we supposed to let men know how much we give so that we can prove we are faithful tithers? Where is the transition teaching from the OT to the NT? How did people know that the Church now requires money and not food? The tithe cost Melchizedek nothing, but not so with the supposed NT law of tithing. If Melchizedek is our model, then we should only pay from our soils AND what are the "spoils", today?

So many questions, yet no transition teaching from the NT APOSTLES.

 2015/10/19 20:33
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

"Is Tithing for Christians?" by Steve Gregg
_______________________

It is commonly taught in churches that Christians should tithe (a word meaning the giving of “a tenth” of their income) to their local church. Christians are sometimes told that they owe the first ten percent of their income to the church where they attend, and that any giving to other needy persons or ministries falls into a separate category called “offerings” and should be given only after the first tenth has been given to the church. Preachers sometimes speak as if the Bible actually teaches such a thing, although the Bible nowhere mentions what we today call a “local church,” and the New Testament never applies any duty of tithing to Christians.

Tithing was commanded to the children of Israel for the support of the Levites (Num.18:21). The Levites, who were consecrated to full-time ministry and could not be profitably employed, would enjoy a standard of living that approximated or was slightly higher than the national average. The Levites, in turn, contributed a tenth of their income to the priests for their support (Num.18:26-28). The system was designed to free-up a large number of men to minister in things of the tabernacle/temple and to teach the law to the people. The fraction “a tenth” was not arbitrary, but corresponded to the needs of the number of full-time ministers requiring support.

Ever since God abolished the temple and the Levitical priesthood, there remains no obvious reason why the tithe should continue to define a Christian’s measure of giving to God. The church generally does not release one full-time minister for every ten families (though this ratio would not be excessive), so there is no biblical or logical reason why the same percentage of the Christian’s income should be devoted to the church’s coffers as was required of the Israelites in their support of the temple clergy. This is, no doubt, why neither Jesus nor the apostles ever so much as suggested this duty to the disciples. The tithe was for the support of the ritual system of Israel. These ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with in the coming of a better covenant.

Sometimes it is argued that tithing did not “go out with the Law” for the simple reason that it was practiced prior to the giving of the Law, and has, therefore, a validity of its own independent of the Law. The total evidence that tithing was practiced before the time of Moses consists of two passages in Genesis. In Genesis 14:20, Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of his recent conquest against Chedolaomer to the priest Melchisedek. Also, in Genesis 28:20-22, Jacob, awaking from his famous dream, vowed to give God a tenth of whatever prosperity God might give him in the time of his absence from Canaan. Do these passages teach or even hint that godly individuals regularly devoted ten percent of their wealth to God? Two isolated cases cannot establish such a pattern, since we never read of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Isaac, Judah or Joseph observing any such practice. Nor do we have record of Abraham or Jacob ever doing so on occasions other than these two recorded cases. We have no reason to believe that Abraham tithed regularly.Therefore, none can establish from Scripture that tithing was a recognized or mandated practice prior to the time of Moses. Furthermore, even if we did have a biblical basis for such a teaching, it does not follow that tithing continues as a duty into the New Covenant. Remember, circumcision and animal sacrifices (both commanded in the Law of Moses) were definitely regular practices prior to the giving of the Law, but this does not provide an argument for their continuance after the time of Christ.

Tithing is mentioned in the New Testament in three connections. Hebrews 7 simply recounts the story of Abraham and Melchisedek, without reference to any duty in this matter accruing to others. The Gospels record the saying of Christ that the scribes and Pharisees meticulously paid their tithes, while neglecting “weightier maters of the law” (Matt.23:23/Luke 11:42). Jesus states that they should have done both (i.e. paid tithes and observed the weightier matters), but this only states what was required of the Pharisees as men living under the Old Testament law, and tells us nothing of any ongoing duty for Christian disciples. Finally, we have the self-congratulating “prayer” of a Pharisee in a parable (Luke 18:12), who boasts of paying tithes of all that he possesses, but the parable does not go on to make this man a model for Christians to emulate.

It is not surprising that advocates of tithing do not make much use of these New Testament verses. The preaching usually centers upon the classic Old Testament rebuke of those who neglected to “bring all of the tithes into the storehouse” (Mal.3:10). The argument goes something like this:

“The storehouse is where you go to get your food. Spiritually, you get your feeding from your local church. Therefore, God commands you to give ten percent of your income to the church of which you are a member. Anything over that amount that you give is not your tithe, but an offering.”

One can easily speculate as to the motivation churches might have for teaching along this line. The only thing wrong with the above argument is that there is not one legitimate scriptural point contained in it. First, the “storehouse” was not where the Jews went to get their food. The storehouse refers to the storage rooms in the Jerusalem temple (Neh.10:38) where food was stored for the priests. They ate it there, and any surplus was given to the poor (Deut.26:12), but the idea was not that of a private pantry from which the tithing worshipper provided for his own sustenance. Further, it is not a given that every Christian gets his primary spiritual feeding from his local church. It is the very negligence of such feeding by the churches that has led to the proliferation on non-ecclesiastical ministries (sometimes called parachurch ) to make up for this deficiency. Finally, nothing in the passage is addressed to New Testament believers. The Christian’s standards for giving are defined in entirely different terms.

Those terms are found in the teaching of Christ, that one who would follow Christ must forsake “all that he has” (Luke 14:33/ cf. Matt.13:44-46). The ceremonial law served as a foreshadowing of the Christian revelation. The latter teaches that all of God’s people, having been “bought with a price,” are not their own, but are owned lock, stock and barrel by Jesus Christ (1 Cor.6:19-20). All of the believer’s time and all of his possessions belong to God—a fact foreshadowed in ceremonial law by the requirement of giving Him a representative token of each (one day of his week, and one tenth of his possessions).

In place of “tithing” the New Testament teaches “stewardship” (Luke 12:42; 16:1ff; 19:12-13/ Matt.25:14/ Titus 1:7). The Christian is a “steward”, or “manager,” of somebody else’s (God’s) possessions. He is not in a partnership with God in which God holds 10 shares and he holds 90. In coming to Christ, the repentant sinner surrenders everything to God, and claims ownership of nothing (Acts 4:32). From the moment of his conversion, the believer becomes responsible to manage every asset (monetary or otherwise) in the interests of his Master’s profit. Those seeking to reserve a share of their lives for themselves need not apply (Luke 9:23).

What, then, is the steward’s responsibility? He must discharge his trust in exactly the manner that his Master would do if He were in His steward’s shoes. What would God spend His money on? Well, the Scriptures give us all the guidance we need on this matter. Throughout Scripture, God expresses His concern for the plight of the helpless poor and the support of those who minister the Word of God. A timely gift to the poor is a gift to God Himself (Prov.19:17/Matt.25:37-40), and is the prescribed method of depositing treasures in heaven (Mark 10:21/Luke 12:33). Giving to the needy is merely an expression of the mandate to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Luke 10:27-37).

The support of the Kingdom’s ministers is similarly an expression of our duty to love God, to seek first the Kingdom of God (Matt.6:33). These ministers include those who teach the Word of God (as the Levites were to do—Gal.6:6/1 Cor.9:11/1 Tim.5:17-18). This would include the pastor of one’s church (if he teaches God’s Word) as well as others from whom one receives spiritual direction and nourishment. It also would include traveling ministers and missionaries (Luke 8:2-3/Phil.4:16-18/3 John 5-8). There is such a variety of ministry—some more- and some less-needy, and some more-, some less-worthy of support—that a conscientious steward will do a bit of prayerful research before committing the Master’s funds to a given appeal for assistance. In the end, the discharge of one’s stewardship requires a great deal of prayer and leading of the Holy Spirit. It is nothing like such a simple matter as writing a check to the local assembly (which might be looking to replace the carpeting for the third time this decade) for a tenth of one’s paycheck.

We must also acknowledge that God would provide for the needs of His servants and their families. Therefore, a certain amount of our income must be devoted to the feeding, housing and clothing of our families (1 Tim.5:8). Nor is there any forbidding of a few things for enjoyment alone (1 Tim.6:17). How many such things? That is between the steward and his Master, and is not for another to judge (Rom.14:4). However, we must be on our guard against our own pervasive tendency to judge our own actions (and expenditures) more favorably than the facts would suggest. In eternity, our rejoicing will be proportionate to our self-denial in this life and our generosity to the poor and to the work of God.

In the century following the apostolic age, the Christians understood that tithing had been replaced by full surrender to God. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus wrote, “[The Old Testament saints] offered their tithes; but those who have received liberty set apart everything they have for the Lord’s use, cheerfully and freely giving them, not as small things in hope of greater, but like that poor widow, who put her whole livelihood into the treasury of God.” The Didache (early second century) certainly has Scripture on its side when it counsels, “Do not hesitate to give, and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that repays you. . .Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own.”


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/19 20:47Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.



That's exactly what I'm saying, it is a matter of faith. Nothing is mentioned about a payment system in Abraham's tithe, he just gave a tenth to Melchezidek as a display of faith. Perhaps we give more than that, perhaps less, but let it be an act of faith.

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2015/10/19 20:50Profile









 Re:

The least of my worries is whether Christians are giving because I know anyone who is walking with the Lord will be giving in many ways and expressions. Why is the religious system worried about how much money someone is giving to it? They must be worried for they have built a religious payment/tax system for the Church and yet there is no NT teaching on this.

Did you know that there were 3 kinds of tithes? Did you know that there is no command whatsoever in the New Testament about tithing?

"The practice of paying tithes is very ancient:for we find, Gen 14:20, that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, king of Salem, at his return from...
There were three sorts of tithes (bold are my words) to be paid from the people (besides those from the Levites to the priests); (1) To the Levites, for their maintenance, Num 18:21,24; (2) For the Lord's feasts and sacrifices, to be eaten in the place which the Lord should choose to put his name there Deut. 14:22-24; (3) Besides these two, there was to be, every third year, a tithe for the poor, to be eaten in their own dwellings. Deut. 14:28,29"

Do these things exist to, today? Do we have "Levites" maintaining the Temple sacrifice, or the Lord's feasts and sacrifices or do we only give to the poor every third year?

Are we supposed to use logic to extrapolate doctrines?

The Point of Logic that is used by the enforcers of Tithing -

Tithing was practiced before the Law, was made a part of the Law, and, therefore, should be practiced after the Law.

If the above statement were true, then it would be true regardless of the topic you were talking about. And, by being "practiced after the Law", it is meant that it becomes part of the New Testament and is a command given to all Christians today.

CIRCUMCISION

But we do not find that to be the case. For example, circumcision was practiced before the Law, was a part of the Law, but is definitely not a part of the New Testament after the Law.

God commanded Abraham to practice circumcision hundreds of years before the Law was handed down through Moses.

When the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant, circumcision was not brought forward into the New Covenant. There were many Jewish Christians who thought that circumcision should be made mandatory for everyone who put their faith in Jesus Christ. For them, to become a Christian was to become a Jew. And to be a Jew, one was still under Jewish Law.

One of Paul's biggest battles that he constantly fought was to distinguish between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Paul understood through the illumination of the Holy Spirit that it was critical to separate the former relationship between man and God through the Law (OT), from the new relationship between man and God by GRACE through FAITH in CHRIST (NT). And, since circumcision was one of the most obvious, physical, visible expressions of the OT, it was spoken to in no uncertain terms. Paul made it very clear that no requirement of the Old Law was to be brought forward into the NT.

Noah practice burnt offerings before the Law, burnt offerings were incorporated into the Law but they are no longer required after the law.

AFTER THE LAW
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Tithing - replaced with giving from the heart. (2 Cor 9:7)
Circumcisions - replaced with circumcision of the heart. (Rom 2:29)
Burnt offerings - replaced with living sacrifices (Rom 12:1) and the final sacrifice (Heb 9:12).

There are forces that will continue to give Christians "reasonable alternatives" and draw them away from walking by the Spirit.

 2015/10/19 21:02









 Re:

Quote:
by InTheLight on 2015/10/19 20:50:54

Quote:
If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.



That's exactly what I'm saying, it is a matter of faith. Nothing is mentioned about a payment system in Abraham's tithe, he just gave a tenth to Melchezidek as a display of faith. Perhaps we give more than that, perhaps less, but let it be an act of faith.

In Christ,



Knowing how the "Law of Tithing" is preached today by manipulating men on one hand, ignorant men on the other hand, even sincere men, why don't you distance yourself from using the word tithing since it has become of system of bondage today and is not NT scriptural?

Giving today by the Christian is about whatever the Lord places on their heart and there is no percentage tied to it. It is not about money, or time or goods or maybe it is about a little of both. Who is qualified to say except the Holy Spirit in each individual's life? For sure, no man is qualified! And it has nothing at all to do with Melchizedek who is recorded as giving one time and of his spoils. It did not cost him anything!! He gave 10% of his spoils. Why didn't he give everything?

Do we really have to tell people who know the Lord that their giving should be an act of faith? I think we should spend more time exposing the false payment/tax system. Most Christians want to give and we should expose the systems that seek to bring them into bondage.

Well, I have said enough for the night. It is repugnant to me (and the Holy Spirit) when the people of God are manipulated and bewitched. I want to see my fellow Believers walking in the liberty of Christ, free to respond to Him and not being coerced by men under the guise of spirituality.

 2015/10/19 21:15
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Knowing how the "Law of Tithing" is preached today by manipulating men on one hand, ignorant men on the other hand, even sincere men, why don't you distance yourself from using the word tithing since it has become of system of bondage today and is not NT scriptural?



For the same reason that I don't distance myself from the word 'baptism' even though some teach baptismal salvation.

I will quote something written by a member here on SI when discussing this subject; "Personally, I believe that it's easy to blame the law, when something comes that resists the flesh, and tithing definitely does that."

Have a good night and may the Lord bless you dear brother.

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2015/10/19 21:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I will quote something written by a member here on SI when discussing this subject; "Personally, I believe that it's easy to blame the law, when something comes that resists the flesh, and tithing definitely does that."



Ron, I'm sorry, I read that over and over and don't understand it. Can you expand on it, please? You don't have to do it tonight. Any time, is fine.

 2015/10/19 22:04
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re: To tithe or not to tithe?

JHerndon,

KingJimmy brought up a relevant topic last year on this forum: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=52054&forum=34

He discusses some of the practical realities of giving, as well as the relevant Malachi verses on tithing.

Tithing is indeed not part of the New Covenant. And, as KingJimmy puts it, "we are called to a different sort of stewardship and a different form of giving altogether".

I also believe that it's healthy to have a more expansive view on giving - not just in terms of finances, but of time and other resources as well.

 2015/10/19 22:58Profile









 Re:

Thanks, Yuehan. This one at 10:33 was really good. But, a lot of good posts in the thread you gave.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=52054&forum=34&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=1

Russell Kelly seems to have an exhaustive amount of articles on this. Things I never thought of.
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

 2015/10/19 23:16
JHerndon
Member



Joined: 2010/8/1
Posts: 92
Bonifay,Fl

 Re:

I completely agree about giving not being strictly financial! You all have been very helpful! Thank you!


_________________
Joshua Herndon

 2015/10/19 23:18Profile





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