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JHerndon
Member



Joined: 2010/8/1
Posts: 92
Bonifay,Fl

 To tithe or not to tithe?

I'm just wondering the different points of view out there on the subject of tithing. I believe that I am coming to the conclusion that "tithing" is an Old Testament principle while sacrificial giving is the New Testament model. I believe that we can learn from chapter 9 in 2 Corinthians that giving should be consistent, sacrificial, and cheerful. I bring up the subject because I have recently heard a preacher say that you will die and go to hell without giving God his 10%. Then quoted the verse in Malachi about robbing God and being cursed. I couldn't disagree more with that statement and honestly it makes me a little angry. I am not rich by no means but 10% is not very sacrificial. 5% to someone else could be extremely sacrificial. I believe that giving is a characteristic of the believer and not a command to the believer. Thoughts?


_________________
Joshua Herndon

 2015/10/19 16:18Profile









 Re: To tithe or not to tithe?

Everything a Christian does should be Spirit-led, period!

If a Christian's walk is not Spirit-led, then what do you have?

 2015/10/19 16:39
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: To tithe or not to tithe?

There is no passage in the NT that commands, instructs or even encourages tithing is for the Church. The only mention of tithing in an Epistle is Hebrews and that is using the tithing of Abraham to teach an altogether different point.

You are right to conclude that sacrificial, free will giving is the correct position for NT believers. Any one who teaches you will go to hell if you don't tithe is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Also a false preacher and a manipulator of truth.

The tithing teaching in the church is only supported and promoted to shore up the false practice of paid pastors and workers. The sooner the church gets rid of the salaried clergy system the better! It encourages the clergy / laity divide and is an enemy of the proper functioning of Christ's body.


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Dave

 2015/10/19 16:44Profile
Theophila
Member



Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 365


 Re: To tithe or not to tithe?

Dear brother,
I have come to the same conclusion as you have but you seem to have touched a touchy subject [sic]. While I believe NT giving is of free-will, I also believe we are commanded to give. [e.g. In Matthew 6, our Lord said, 'When you give', not 'If you give'...]. I could be wrong in my interpretation but I don't limit it to just money. There are other resources at my disposal e.g. time, items necessary for daily living [food, clothing etc] etc.

@Brother Julius, if you give such a response when a fellow brother merely asks your opinion on a matter that's not related to salvation, I fear your reaction if an atheist questions your sanity for believing in an invisible God whose existence can't [at least from his point of view] be proven empirically.


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Tolu

 2015/10/19 17:00Profile









 Re:

Hi Theophila,

What verse in Matthew 6 are you referring to? I could not find it. By the way, please have your mind at rest, I have always been Christlike to Atheists. At least, that's what they tell me. :-)

JHerndon
If one begins to ponder the spirit-led Christian life many erroneous beliefs that are rooted in 'man-made' and 'man-dictated' doctrines will come to light. I like to drop seeds of truth and hints and motivate a person to think about the Christian walk and the activity and functioning of Jesus Christ within them. The only way a person is going to change their mindset is if they reach the truth by themselves without always being spoon-fed. You must SEE, I must SEE. I cannot walk this walk on what a man tells me. I must have revelation from the Lord and so must you. So, though I could write reams of information about tithing, I was trying to give you a hint. I would rather a person begin to think correctly concerning the totality of their walk and not just one aspect. You seemed like the kind of person that I could just drop a hint about the Christian walk being a spirit-led walk in all things and then just let you ponder whether tithing was spirit-led or even scriptural. It seems you have been doing a good amount of study on your own regarding this subject. HeyDave's reply was very good, by the way. He is very concise, much better than me.

With that said, I will drop more hints about the "Christian" law that is called tithing.

Let's ponder the following "fear preaching from the pulpit", whether it is the voice of the Spirit or not. Which ones do you think are the voice of the Spirit? From which source does this teaching come from? Heaven or Hell? Jesus Christ or Satan? Truth "easy to be entreated" or the "twisting of Scripture?"

1) The tithe is the Lord's. (So keep your hands off it)

2) If you don't tithe you are a God-robber. (And we know robbers are bad)

3) A curse will come on you if you don't tithe. (No one wants a curse. Pure fear and intimidation)

4) Tithing rebukes the devourer. (You have problems in your life because you don't tithe)

5) The tithe is the connection to the covenant. (No tithe and you are not in covenant)

6) The tithe redeems the other 90-percent. (No tithe and you lose the other 90%)

7) Tithing qualifies you to receive more from God. (No tithe and you don't receive squat).

8) Tithing puts God first in your life. (No tithe and you are not a committed Christian).

9) If you don't tithe, God will take that 10-percent from you. (Ouch! He'll get his take somehow. Kind of like the Divine Mafia)

10) If everyone tithed, churches would have plenty of money.
(It's your fault that churches are impoverished. YOU are either part of the problem or part of the solution).

11) Heaven will be shut up against you if you don't tithe.
(Ouch again!! Please God, I have to pay my bills or else they will throw me out on the street).

12) Miracle testimonies prove that tithing is God's will.
(You have no miracles in your life because God is not getting your payment).

 2015/10/19 17:56
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
There is no passage in the NT that commands, instructs or even encourages tithing is for the Church. The only mention of tithing in an Epistle is Hebrews and that is using the tithing of Abraham to teach an altogether different point.



Even if it is using the tithing of Abraham to teach another point it is still instructional for us on the subject of tithing. It tells me that Abraham paid tithe 400 years before the law and so he had no formal instruction on tithing that we know of. This would then indicate that he did it because he knew it was God's will to pay that tithe. Jesus embraced tithing but, of course, this was before He died and rose again.

As you can probably tell I am one who embraces the concept of tithing but I would not say that it is a perfectly clear concept in the New Testament and so I just hope that we can avoid judgemental speaking towards one another in this topic.

This topic has been discussed at length here before, here are a few threads;

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1788&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Tithing is not a Old Testament Law !

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=4398&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]tithing

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6984&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]"enforced" tithing?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9651&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]How about tithing nowadays?

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2015/10/19 18:59Profile









 Re:

I agree that we should not judge one another, but only the teaching because wrong doctrines nullify the finished work of Christ in a Believer's life and prevent him/her from really entering into spiritual union with Him. You can't be truly "In Christ" when you are observing laws, no matter how innocent they may be.

You are correct that Jesus referred to tithing when the Law was still in effect (before He died and sealed the New Covenant in His blood). Jesus was living during the Law and speaking to people who were under the Law.

Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with tithing in the New Covenant. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between the Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood to show us how far superior a priest Jesus is.

The book of Hebrews proclaims the superiority of the New Covenant. It says we have a better hope (7:19), better covenant (7:22)(8:6), better promises (8:6), better sacrifices (9:23), better substance (10:34), better country (11:16), better resurrection (11:35), and better outcome of our faith (11:40).

It shows that Jesus has a better name (1:4) and better blood (12:24), and that we now have a better cleansing of sin, a better conscience (9:14), and a better relationship with God, entering the true holy place in the heavenly realm.

This is what Hebrews 7 is all about! Showing us by tying into all the other "better" verses, that we do indeed have a far better (superior) Priest in Jesus Christ.
The verses above, are all from Hebrews.

Hebrews chapter 7 is showing us that Jesus is a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant. The Holy Spirit proves to us first that Melchizedek was a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant.

Let's look at Abraham and the tithe that he gave. What are some characteristics of this tithe and was it habitual.

1. First of all, there is no scriptural evidence that God told him to give it.

2. God's original promise and eventual covenant with Abraham was based on faith, alone. Nothing to do with tithing.

3. No where in Scripture did God instruct Abraham to give a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek.

4. No where in Scripture did God ever instruct Abraham to give any tithe.

5. Abraham was already incredibly rich and he was not made rich by giving a tithe to Melchizedek.

6. When Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek, it was the only time that he ever gave a tithe.

7. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that Abraham ever gave another tithe the rest of his life.

8. The tithe that Abraham gave cost him nothing. It was on the spoils of the battle. It was not part of his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds.

9. God's fulfillment to Abraham did not include a condition of tithing. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving.

10. Christian's have said that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant. There is no where in Scripture where this is stated.

11. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with God fulfilling his promise to Abraham to make him a great nation, bless him, make his name great and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. It was never mentioned except with Melchizedek and Abraham chose to do that only out of his spoils. Read

Abraham believed what God said and acted on it. There were no works involved.

12. God made Abraham rich on the basis of faith alone. Tithing was not the reason for Abraham's prosperity.

From Genesis to Revelation, God has never been in debt to man and He never will. Our relationship with Him is based on faith alone. We approach Him and love Him, on faith alone. And He rewards us and blesses us on Faith alone. He causes our soul to be fat (prosperous). His grace is far beyond any natural comprehension we can attain.

When you read the Bible you realize that information about the most important things in God's economy are not held back from us. They are revealed. Anything as important as an eternal, universal law of tithing would have been clearly communicated and not left to us to fumble about and figure out. However, the opposite is true. It is not plainly laid out as a NT ordinance of God.

Where is the transition teaching in the New Testament regarding how the Tithe has changed for NT Believers? It is no where to be found. How did Believers know not to practice the tithe anymore the old way, but somehow knew that this new, strange way was to practice it? This teaching certainly was not presented to the Gentile church in Acts 15. So, where is this transition teaching about observing the tithe in a brand new way because the NT tithe has absolutely nothing to do with the OT tithe.

This is probably the most obvious thing that everyone overlooks. The transition teaching from the OT Tithing Law to the NT Tithing Law does not exist, and they are vastly different, so how would people know that now they are to pay 10% of their paycheck after taxes to the church? That cannot be found anywhere in the Word of God.

 2015/10/19 19:22
JHerndon
Member



Joined: 2010/8/1
Posts: 92
Bonifay,Fl

 Re:

Julius,

Thank you for the hints! And also I thought what you said about the transition teaching was really helpful. I could be wrong but my understanding is the the OT tithe actually adds up to roughly 23%? So the absence of a transitional teaching from OT tithing to NT tithing should raise some flags.

Bro Ron,

My problem is not that people tithe 10% what bothered me was the statement that God will send you to hell or your life will be cursed if you don't give the 10% I was taught this growing up. I believed it religiously. Some hard times fell on my mom and she wasn't tithing and I sat her down and told her she was cursed because she wasn't tithing. A few years later I talked with her again asking for her forgiveness because I put a burden on her that I found to be extra biblical. It angers me to think about how many people have similar stories because some preacher misled them. I know not every preacher who believes in tithing is a wolf in sheeps clothing. This is the teaching they have been taught their entire lives. I have no desire to start any threads that get out of control I was just curious to see what the different views out there were.


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Joshua Herndon

 2015/10/19 20:02Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: To tithe or not to tithe?

Quote:
by JHerndon:
I bring up the subject because I have recently heard a preacher say that you will die and go to hell without giving God his 10%. Then quoted the verse in Malachi about robbing God and being cursed. I couldn't disagree more with that statement and honestly it makes me a little angry.


You cannot trust "man's" interpretation of the Word but TRUST God's word to speak for itself and THAT takes a close walk with God. It does make one wonder how big that guys church is and how much it needs to operate on a monthly basis, much of which is man 'ordained' and not God ordained?? If it is man ordained, then they can't trust for the funds and thereby need to make people feel guilty into giving 10%. ***I'm not saying every church is like that but we as the people of God need to pray where good ground is to be sowing our seed.

I speak from experience, the "MINUTE" you think you don't need to be giving to your local church is the 'minute' you need to leave and find good ground to sow in to. And I dare say that will be a long and prayerful journey.

I believe the reason most Christians are against the tithe is because they are against where to give it! I believe in giving whether it's Spirit-led or not because the Word says, "But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?" 1 John 3:17

You may be against the 10% tithe but please do not be against giving 10% (+ or -) on a regular basis to help those in need.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/10/19 20:11Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Yes, the argument usually goes that tithing is abolished as part of the Old Covenant Law and we have the better promises of Hebrews 8.

Yet still, Hebrews 7 speaks of Abraham tithing and this would mean that the tithe is actually part of the Abraham's faith in action, before Old Covenant Law. Abraham is the father of those of faith, so tithing was a matter of faith, not law.

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2015/10/19 20:12Profile





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