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  Eschatology I hate this subject

Dear Friends

I am writing to you because I thought it necessary to convey to you as to how I feel about certain subjects.

Our Brother Aaron from Ireland has brought up a wonderful piece of writing that I think everyone should take the time to read.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5497&forum=36

I know many of you must think that I am very dogmatic when it comes to the Last Days and the Preterist view point which as our Brother Aaron Pointed out is Historicism.

When I first became a believer way back when, I only wanted to know the Father's heart and Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Everything else didn't matter to me.

I'd shun and walk away from conversations that were too controversial, namely the Oneness, Revelation, End times etc.. I had no use in the subject, all it did was gender strife, which I tried to avoid.

One time when I was invited to a home study group, I was told that they studied the bible, and I thought, "o boy a bible study". When I found out what the "bible study" was I up and left, If I wanted to study what the Jehovah's Witness believe I'll buy a book on the subject, but that bible study was a waste of time on filling our hearts with brain damaging food that would only confuse and may cause some to vomit. I know my Mother did. Her Sister who is JW spoke to her about her faith until one night my Mother had a dream where she was at this party and there was a table spread with all kinds of disgusting things. Everyone in the room was lapping the food up, and they looked at her and she was feeling sick, she was led to a bathroom where she vomit up what she heard from her Sister days before. I guess that is why Jesus said, "Becareful how you hear".

I don't know how I got into that story, but anyway.

The subject of Eschatology is something that I never wanted to learn, I still don't. I don't like being a Preterist, I don't like being a Futurist either. I just like to be a normal believer, and believe what everyone else believes.

If we are going thru the Great Tribulation, then so be it, who cares anyway, I've gone thru Tribulation I'll go thru greater ones.

So what if an antichrist arises, we have had hundreds of them in the past, and we have them today and we'll continue to have them until the end of this age.

So what if we can't buy or sell lest we take the infamous "mark" of the whatever, after all aren't we supposed to live by faith if we are Justified?

You see all of this means nothing, it really means zero.

Someone might say, "why do you talk about what you believe if you don't like talking about it?"

Well again, it's like trying not to gossip, when your in the company of gossippers, you'll end up gossipping.

When your in the company of people talking about Eschatology, then your going to talk about Eschatology. It's that simple.

But my friends, I just wanted you to know that my preference is not this subject. This subject is at the bottom of my list.

I have pondered why God told me to leave the Church that I was attending, I thought it might be what I know, that I might contaminate them, and He ushered me out the door.

I have pondered our Brother Aaron's words about his discouragements on giving up on God and the whole thing.

I have thought about what our Brother Ironman has to say, though he may think that I am against him on every subject, but on the contrary, I highly esteem his faith.

I have thought about the teachings of T Austin Sparks.

The battle is getting back to that simplicity. I sometimes wish that there was another bible to read. Oh please don't miscontrude what I just said, please DO NOT.

When you've perverted every teaching that is written in the bible, it's difficult to read that same bible, because all you see is the perverse teachings that you have held unto. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I am not saying that the bible teachings are perverse.

When I sought God thru that lengthy fast for Wisdom and Understanding........all I got out of that is Eschatology. A subject that I simply didn't want to get into, "LORD why couldn't you move on someone who is interested in this, why move upon me?"

At one time I was eager to go into the ministry, Today, I am saying, "LORD move upon someone else who has more to give, I've got nothing to give and nothing to offer, I am an unprofitable servant, if I am one".

Oh the sweet fellowship that we once had, where has that gone? Where we truly walked thru that Garden alone together. I was naked before you, nothing was hidden.

I better end this here, before I bury myself in my own miseries.

God bless you my friends.

Karl

 2005/5/8 12:19
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Eschatology I hate this subject

Quote:
[b]Eschatology I hate this subject[/b]



:-P Brother, God bless you man!

Bear with me I am laughing and smiling and almost wanting to cry at the same time!

Karl, thank you. Where to start here is difficult so I will just do the usual and bounce all over the place.

Part of this is to 'rebuke' you a little bit here. You are indeed a servant of the Lord and He used you to smite my own shallowness right out of this very subject that I too practically
'despise', and it gave me a lift to see that heading and caused the laughter to come forth. If you recall, our (my) little controversy there early on was in what I perceived you to be as something of a universalist, not to forget about the whole [i]God is not angry[/i] thread...

So in a nut shell I jumped the rails in 'judging' you in my head from what you were saying and forgot to practice the same thing that the tendency to preach about here in forbearance with one another. Flatly I had it all wrong and here it is another day and another saint that we all glean much from, think not to lowly of yourself (worthless as it is :-P ...DONT GET ME WRONG now, all these filthy rags, you know the deal, I know what worth I am of as well...) But you are a saint, a child of the Most High...

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but [b]ye are washed[/b], but [b]ye are sanctified[/b], but [b]ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God[/b].

Praise God!

Quote:
The battle is getting back to that simplicity. I sometimes wish that there was another bible to read. Oh please don't miscontrude what I just said, please DO NOT.

When you've perverted every teaching that is written in the bible, it's difficult to read that same bible, because all you see is the perverse teachings that you have held unto. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I am not saying that the bible teachings are perverse.



Ah... most certainly understanding you here Karl, it's that jaded thinking and I am telling you it can be done, this blessed idea that was picked up from brother Zac Poonen...if I could find that message again... that we can leave these things at the foot of the cross and come emptied and read the scriptures as if for the first time, everyday, he articulates it so much better, but it has 'stuck' in my thinking for quite some time now. Sure it's imperfect, it takes some time to dump everything that has accumulated over time, but it almost forces you to loosen the grip even more on the disputable, the secondary, shoot even what ultimately becomes more and more secondary, not with out import, just in the grand scheme of things, the pecking order.

Bouncing again...
Quote:
At one time I was eager to go into the ministry, Today, I am saying, "LORD move upon someone else who has more to give, I've got nothing to give and nothing to offer, I am an unprofitable servant, if I am one".


If you choose to, go ahead and agree with the devil on this point if I may lift just the principle here a moment;

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

And then send him packing with a wave of the hand, he is a liar still. What of it? What is it that he is telling you that you don't already know? What can you do to a dead dog? (To borrow again from Zac) I must find this message brother, I believe all this comes from the same topic he was discussing. The point is...

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that [b]I might live unto God[/b].
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: [b]nevertheless[/b] I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, [b][u]who loved me[/u], and gave himself for me[/b].

Rebounding again...
Quote:
Our Brother Aaron from Ireland has brought up a wonderful piece of writing that I think everyone should take the time to read.


[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5497&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Future History of the Church[/url]

Oh I do concur! I am sorry but this just makes far too much [i]sense[/i] and maybe I am mixed up here, but it seems to coincide fairly well with another series from [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2411&forum=42&post_id=&refresh=Go]Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions[/url] or directly (The order is easier to follow from the link from Greg above) [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=133] Edgar F. Parkyns[/url]

By the way, I think this is what I was referring to earlier
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3176]The Way of the Cross[/url] [i]by Zac Poonen[/i]

Of course all this is but a cog somewhat to;
Quote:
The battle is getting back to that simplicity


And I know of what you speak here Karl, 10 part series likely the last thing to delve into now and maybe some less heavy weight doctrinally exhortation from Zac a helpful bit of medicine or none of the above. That the Lord grant you the simplicity of thought and rest for the mind right now. My prayers are towards that for you and even my own self, I know the folly and the things I can get caught up in when what is needed is just a distraction from my own mind musings and to simply cease striving and [i]know[/i].


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/5/8 14:50Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Eschatology I hate this subject

Quote:

Healingwaters wrote:
The subject of Eschatology is something that I never wanted to learn, I still don't. I don't like being a Preterist, I don't like being a Futurist either. I just like to be a normal believer, and believe what everyone else believes.



What can I say :cry:. I had a feeling that this was how you felt, but due to the 'worldly principle' of piting opposites against each other, felt anecessity to confront one extreme against another. Personally, I have gone from being a christian who was uncomfortable about the 'pre-trib' view point, to being one who said, "All I know is, Jesus comes, I leave. Period", ignoring the issues of eschatology. To rejecting 'pre-trib'. To admitting my ignorance to the whole thing, believing that I won't know until the end (or at least near the end).

Bless you bro', I'm glad you're getting something out of Prasch (he can be a bit hard to handle at times):-).


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/8 18:40Profile









 Re:Christ in you, our hope

Brother Aaron, I don't want you to have the impression that I have abandon the idea of preterist view point. What I have abandon was the nonsense of discussing it. If I believed in the Pre-Trib, I would still have posted this post and acknowledged all that I have acknowledged.

And you are right, if the LORD should come back in our life time, we leave, but if not, then so be it.

What the LORD revealed to me was something that is so close to the preterist view point that one could run with it. But I am beginning to see that that is not what He wants me to run with.

I have stated this once before that Christ's desire for the Church is that He be glorified in His Saints, and the thing that He stressed was that it doesn't mean a rapture, but a glorification of Himself in mature sons of God, on earth. In a sense we would be raptured, that is we would be lifted off this fleshy plane and walk in the Spirit.

For anyone reading this, I am not denying the Rapture, I am stating something else. It is with this my Brother that I wish to run with and allow Christ to grow up inside of us. I truly believe with all my heart this is what Peter meant when he said, "It's Christ in you the hope of Glory". That hope of glory is that Christ be revealed in us. The unveiling of our flesh will reveal Christ.

Oh the riches and the glory of God, I have been side tracked on issues that don't amount to a hill of beans. And Satan would have us to be side tracked, arguing about Baptisms and names, Eschatology, and denominations etc.. and the list does go on.

Thank you brother for your love, I appreciate that.

Karl

 2005/5/8 21:15
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Re:Christ in you, our hope

Karl,

Why is it, that whenever I open my mouth to put out a fire, I end up igniting another:-( (I think James had something to say about this). By saying "Christ comes, I leave", I meant in the sence of, the final curtain being lowered, imediately preceding "Judgement Day", or whether by "living in Christ", or "death toward gain".

Similar to what I perceive in you, there was a difference between what I "embraced" (for want of a better term), in order to keep me on the straight and narrow, and what I actually beileved, which was that I really didn't know or cared about. Now, apart from a near total rejection of pre-trib (which I believe is distracting the bulk of christendom from the need to prepare for suffering persecution, as a result of living godly, in Christ Jesus - 2 Tim 3:12) I have no real concrete opinions, but a fluid "game plan" (again for want of a better term) of potential senarios. I personally like this Keith Green quote, "I believe we should pray for a pre-trib rapture, and prepare for post-trib."

One major thought that entered my head was, "How dare I consider eschatology to be irrelevant, when spripture deals with it, from such a variety of sources (inlcuding all the prophets, Moses, Paul, John, and of course...Jesus Himself)? Isn't it arrogant of me consider the exploration of the theme, to be beneath me?" (here I go, lighting another fire again) At the end of the day, I take a degree of comfort that the earnest seeker of truth, will inevitably find it.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/9 6:24Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I used to hate eschatology until I saw how much of the apostle Paul's theology is eschatological in nature. The only thing I hate for often passes as eschatology today is that people assert with great confidence on matters that are rather speculative. I cannot stand most "prophecy teachers" these days because of it. Never did God call one to be a prophecy teacher... but God did call men to be teachers. Sadly, some Christians become so over studied in one area and yet are still on milk in others. It's amazing how many prophecy experts out there today don't even know much of anything else on the Bible. Paul warned Timothy of this in 1 Timothy 1.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/5/9 6:44Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Honest wrestling

Quote:
The only thing I hate for often passes as eschatology today is that people assert with great confidence on matters that are rather speculative.


Challenged once again by my own words...

That we mere men have couched and labeled so many areas not with perhaps any ill intent but to make them a study unto themselves... 'Calvinism' and it's opposite... 'Predestination'... 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit'... 'Pre-Post-Present-Future Millenalism'... Eschatology...The list is a mile long.

Tozer:

"Traditionally Christianity has been the religion of the common people. Whenever the upper classes have adopted it in numbers it has died. Respectability has almost always proved fatal to it.

The reasons back of this are two, one human and the other divine. Schleiermacher has pointed out that at the bottom of all religion there lies a feeling of dependence, a sense of creature helplessness. The simple man who lives close to the earth lives also close to death and knows that he must look for help beyond himself. He knows that there is but a step between him and catastrophe. As he rises in the social and economic scale he surrounds himself more and more protective devices and pushes danger (so he thinks) farther and farther from him. Self- confidence displaces the feeling of dependence he once knew and God becomes less necessary to him. Should he stop to think this through he would know better than to place his confidence in things and people, but so badly are we injured by our moral fall that we are capable of deceiving ourselves completely and, if conditions favor it, to keep up the deception for a lifetime."

Quote:
One major thought that entered my head was, "How dare I consider eschatology to be irrelevant, when spripture deals with it, from such a variety of sources (inlcuding all the prophets, Moses, Paul, John, and of course...Jesus Himself)? Isn't it arrogant of me consider the exploration of the theme, to be beneath me?" (here I go, lighting another fire again) At the end of the day, I take a degree of comfort that the earnest seeker of truth, will inevitably find it.


Ouch, yes, thanks Aaron. Needed that rebuke to my own sloppiness, being that also confirms the same similar thoughts dragged away from here yesterday and the odd recurrence of one 'theme' that keeps popping up; The second coming of the Lord.

What I despise is certainly the odd divisive nature of surety amongst brethren with different perspective on matters, that they can so easily turn to self cannibalization of each other. One thing to discuss quite another to devour. And as Aaron stated it is one thing to think we are above such things as to be wholly dismissive of them. Would like to think and believe that like many of these areas the opposite is true, that they are so lofty and beyond us that the wonder is the audacity of such surety to explain mysteries that belong only to God Himself (Pre-destination being another particular frustration and example).

Was listening yesterday to an audio book on A.J. Gordon and after 25 years of ministry the truly wonderful thing was the ability and willingness to still have his mind changed, that we might all be of similar minds if the Lord tarries and we become aged and cantankerous old farts. There was a lot of ground covered but within that the areas of 'eschatology' kept coming into play and the lost or rather sidelined issue of the second coming of our Lord, of eternity are difficult to get away from. In fact it was in large part that so much rode on the second coming throughout scripture and even church history that Gordon found to be the error of how they conducted themselves in all that they were doing even so late into his ministry. Eventually it changed the whole structure and focus around. Much more could be said but to be flippantly dismissive of such things as the way I put it was just wrong, regardless of my intent.

I do despise the warring factions over it and most certainly it is beyond me, not bellow me and to relegate it to a dismissive mindset is just as cocky as being adamant about that which we think we have all figured out.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/5/9 8:23Profile









 Re: God love ya,

Brother Aaron wrote:

Quote:
One major thought that entered my head was, "How dare I consider eschatology to be irrelevant, when spripture deals with it, from such a variety of sources (inlcuding all the prophets, Moses, Paul, John, and of course...Jesus Himself)? Isn't it arrogant of me consider the exploration of the theme, to be beneath me?" (here I go, lighting another fire again) At the end of the day, I take a degree of comfort that the earnest seeker of truth, will inevitably find it.



And you are so right my brother, and I thought on these as I was writing my first post. I guess I could say that it's nonsense to talk about it because it's in the past.

The reason why there is so many view points on this one issue is because no one really knows what the book of Revelation or Daniel is truly saying.

I think the KEY to the whole thing is in Jesus.

Now It looks like that I am starting again on this issue, not so, I am presenting Christ which makes the whole thing make much better sense, spiritually speaking of course.

I woke up this morning singing, "LORD your beautiful, your face is all I see, and when your eyes are on this child, your grace abounds to me".

Our focus must be placed back on Christ NOT an Antichrist. The bible serves as a reference to point us to Christ. We can't live by what the bible says, it will only kill us, but what we do live is that new life that is found only in the living reality of experiencing Jesus Christ.

Someone might say, "Explain what you mean by "we can't live by what the bible says". The word says, "The letter killeth but the Spirit gives life". That is what I mean, so again please don't misconstrude what is being said.

For example Jesus said you must be born again. You as an individual reading that, intellectually say, "I will get born again". So you set off to be born again, and you will try every method known to Christendom to be born again, but then one day, the Spirit of the LORD moves upon you and you drop to your knees and out of a broken spirit cry out, "I can't do it, Save me LORD, take my life do with it what seemth right in your sight, I can't do it".

What happened? You are now born again, only this time, it's not your will that willed it, "No man can come to the Father but by me" and in another place, "by the Spirit" (that should tell us something about Jesus, eh?)

I have no idea how I got over into this.

But the book of Revelation is in unveiling of the Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ. I don't know who coined this saying but it is true, "What Daniel sealed, Revelation revealed."

Daniel was told, "seal up the vision Daneil for the time is long"

The angel told John, "Don't seal the book for the time is at hand".

Aaron see what you have started, grrrrrrrrrrrr :-P

 2005/5/9 11:38
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Healingwaters wrote:
Our focus must be placed back on Christ NOT an Antichrist. The bible serves as a reference to point us to Christ. We can't live by what the bible says, it will only kill us, but what we do live is that new life that is found only in the living reality of experiencing Jesus Christ.
...
The angel told John, "Don't seal the book for the time is at hand".


And yet, that same John took the trouble to warn us that "antichrist is coming" (1 John 4).

Quote:

Aaron see what you have started, grrrrrrrrrrrr :-P


Hehehehe...:-)

You're not alone, in this. We're all here for you (and no I'm not being sarcastic). I don't know if you've listened to Art Katz before, but may I recomend [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=5047"]Future Trends for the Body of Christ[/url], or [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2761"]Be Ye Perfect[/url] and then read [url="http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/af_contents.htm"]Apostolic Foundations[/url], particularly the chapter on [url="http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/princ_powers.htm"]Apostolic Realities: Principalities and Powers[/url], and perhaps [url="http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/apostolic_foundations/eternity.htm"]Apostolic Perception: Eternity[/url], to see the sence of humor of God, in forcing prophets to look into things that they'd prefer to ignore.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/5/10 5:30Profile









 Re: link up

Thanks Aaron, I will look into those links.

 2005/5/10 6:43





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