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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3408
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
staff wrote:
Firstly I never mentioned the rapture at all so I dont know how you thought it did.


Tomato, ta-mat-o.... You may not have mentioned the “rapture” per se but you did infer it with this first statement....

Quote:
staff wrote:
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"


When you brought “post-tribulation views” into the mix, you might as well have said “pre-trib” math is right!! LOL And I almost went there and didn’t but then Dave did!!

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/9/29 5:14Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3408
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
staff wrote:
The issue is the falling away is within the church only then its a marginal thing,If its the world then people cant be quouting left right and center that verse to prove we can loose our salvation.ITS one or the other'


Ok, I think this is the crux of your argument. Right?

So, is this the one verse that makes you think OSAS is not 100% correct, so if you can disprove this one verse with that the Falling away will be such a small percentage of the world’s population no one will notice it?

You know better than anyone else that OSAS and the pre-trib rapture of the church go hand in hand. You’re forgetting the next part of the verse...

“For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first...” The falling away will be so BIG that the Scripture states... ***THEN the man of sin will be revealed and the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God.. ***

One cannot happen without the other, brother, so which one are you trying to disprove?

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/9/29 5:44Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1509


 Re:

Hi Lysa
Again im not trying to disprove either reality like i said
before three times now i think their will be a falling away and then the man of Sin will come.
I believe that the falling away will be "great" or "so big"
like you say even though the bible doesnt say "great falling away" as previously pointed out.
My point is that people cant talk out of both sides of their mouth and say different things.
If the falling away from is from the church it will be a marginal percentage of the worlds population and not big enough to have much effect much less have an effect on the man of sin to be revealed.
If the falling away is from the world then you cant use that and i say again for clarity you cannot use that "one" scripture in OSAS discussion.
For instance if you use that scripture to say " you can loose your salvation" then you have to also say "the falling away is marginal".
You cant have it both ways.
Glad to hear you say OSAS and Pretrib go hand in hand,
I have been saying forever that our trib view is important because it effects everything else.Likewise if you believe you can loose your salvation will go hand in hand with Post Tribulation.
Further effects could be if you are a pre tribber you could go into error with "grace" and if you are post tribber you could go into error with "grace"
Yours Staff

 2015/9/29 6:15Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3408
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
staff said:
I have been saying forever that our trib view is important because it effects everything


Ok, now we are getting somewhere!! :) And I so agree with you that a person's view of end times effects everything! I have some pre-trib friends and really, you can't have a decent end-time conversation with them b/c they are busy protecting their belief system.

I don't believe a person can lose their salvation like losing a set of keys! But I do believe the hearts of men and women will be revealed especially in the final days and many will be found wanting.

I was pre-trib and was post-trib for about 10 years, now I'm just zeroing in on the two Resurrections!! While I'm here, my goal is to glorify His name. And if I'm here when the antichrist is revealed, I hope and pray I will endure unto the end and be an encouragement to others to do the same.

God bless you, brother
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/9/29 7:54Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

It is really funny how nuanced and how many variations of end times views there are.

For example, I was tracking with you Lisa until you said "when the antichrist is revealed" so you must believe in a literal future person who will fit the bill as THE antichrist and will require literal marks on hands or foreheads etc.

I don't believe that, but do believe there is a definite antichrist system in play, but it's been ongoing since the time of the apostles.

I wonder if there is something instructive in the fact that there are as many end times views as there are Christians- because everyone has their own little nuance.

Perhaps it means that God does not really want us to know?


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Todd

 2015/9/29 9:26Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Well Staff, I still think it is a bizarre angle you are taking on this. I mean even if that verse were not in the bible it would not make any difference to the teaching of conditional security (i.e. the possibility of apostasy from the faith) because of the many passages that clearly teach this. I mean it is not as if the teaching hangs on this one scripture, but it is one among many that indicate that apostasy happens.

So you believe there is an apostasy, but you have not explained who and from what they depart from.

TMK, Yes there are many end time views, but generally they fall into various categories that influence those view. For example I would be pre-millennial, but pre-wrath rapture. Therefore I (like Lisa) would take a literal interpretation of scripture. I assume you are either a-millennial partial preterist in your view and therefore take certain scriptures as allegorical and/or all ready fulfilled.

Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice. It would seem to me that there is a desire in Western believers to embrace a God who will save us from all persecution and even our own rebellion. It's like all 'plain sailing in the sun' from here on. No need to agonise or persevere and hold fast to the Lord.


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Dave

 2015/9/29 10:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

Dave wrote: "Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice."

Plus I think a lot of the espousers of this view went to the same seminaries.


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Todd

 2015/9/29 10:47Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Interesting Can of Worms

Good luck:0 I read almost all of the posts and what came to my mind was that of the early church during the great persecutions under Nero. Christians would be under heavy persecution in one place but not another, almost like in one town but not the town just 50 miles away, or maybe one state but not the next state over. Anyway during that time many who had professed faith in Jesus denounced Him under that oppression only to come back into fellowship and received as true believers after the persecution in that area was pasted, many had to humble themselves and it seemed as if some were never reunited in the local fellowship also. Honestly I personally think that only a remnant will go in the rapture, or the catching up...I know the literal word is not in the bible, but Jesus' used the parable of the ten virgins to illustrate a point and used a model of what ? wise vs foolish. I believe they were all Christians in that parable. It is an interesting subject, like the one sister said I guess it is best to just be ready, Jesus said watch and pray, historically it is a good time for both.


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D.Miller

 2015/9/29 12:03Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Quote/"Dave wrote: "Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice."

Todd wrote: Plus I think a lot of the espousers of this view went to the same seminaries."

Yes and Yes to both of these!

Todd wrote: I wonder if there is something instructive in the fact that there are as many end times views as there are Christians- because everyone has their own little nuance.

Perhaps it means that God does not really want us to know?

Well I'm not sure about that last statement... He is not the author of confusion and the conclusion I'm led to from the "nuance" observation is based on the "same seminaries" observation, which is to say I've found many are more loyal/faithful to their denominational doctrines than the Christ they claim to serve. It's sad in that while there is value in the varying perspectives, none are complete alone as it requires personal revelation to understand Revelations (go figure). Having said this I believe the key is the love of the truth over the love of our doctrine. It's interesting and at the same time terrifying that about this very subject (return of Christ/rapture-falling away) Paul makes a most revealing statement regarding those who apparently loved their doctrine more than the truth;
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

What do you all think the delusion/lie is that God sends to proactively seal them unto damnation?
Also do you read this as those are believers/virgins who weren't prepared or unbelievers who never received the gospel that God sends this delusion to?

Honestly I've considered OSAS/pre trib positions as potentially being this,... one reason is how I read vs3 which (for me) seems to emphasize "that day shall not come, execpt/until"
(I mean no disrespect to those who maintain an OSAS/pre trib doctrine, as I am not saying this IS SO, rather considering it as an explanation in light of
verse 3)


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Fletcher

 2015/9/29 12:46Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: believe or not believe

I suppose the most simplest choice would be to simply believe what Paul said and that is don't believe any Spirit or any word or any letter but instead believe in what Paul wrote and what Jesus Christ himself said.

If Paul said so clearly that Jesus Christ would not be coming to gather us together to himself until first comes the Apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition AND that Jesus himself will destroy the son of perdition at that same coming.

Why not simply believe it??

If Jesus said in Rev 20 when He comes that the First Resurrection takes place and at that same time of His Coming He destroys the Antichrist and the False Prophet

Why not simply believe it.

Both Paul and Jesus as well as John taught a Doctrine of two Resurrections, of the Just and of the unjust.

It is very clearly taught that the love of many will grow cold, many will be led astray, because they did not have a love for the Truth, many seek after iniquity,

We see this today in the world and also sadly in the organisational church.

We need to be a people that continue to Trust in Jesus our Lord and Saviour and in His Word.

If God declares there will be a falling away, then it must be true.

We must continue to Trust

11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 2015/9/29 16:32Profile





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