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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Dolfan,
I havent posed a mathemathical equation.
Sometimes mathematical discernment is spiritual discernment!
I have asked simple questions that people wont answer because it upsets their end time theology.
I'd like to see you answer these questions Dolfan'at least too yourself if not here.
Namely questions like
Do you think the falling away is big?
If you think its big why?
If you think its big and church only where do the numbers come from?(as they are not there presently)
If it small how does it have such an effect?
If it is small why talk so much about it?
Does the church restrain evil?
I havent got many straight answers just the usual blurring.
But the ones I got vary from I think its a global event of great significance to I think its a small church falling away that is somehow significant despite the fact that the church doesnt restrain evil.
I think that the falling away is global,I think its big in numbers and consequences as do most Christians Post or Pre.
But to say its from the Church only is Fantasy in my opinion;
My post is not me saying we need numbers or wanting to know how many numbers or the percise amount.Many is good enough for me.
But you cant have your cake and eat it.
If as some people are saying that the falling away from the church and it has such a great effect.Why?
Yours Staff


 2015/10/13 17:45Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:



"I have asked simple questions that people wont answer because it upsets their end time theology."

Bro, I fail to see how it upsets anything for anyone because we do not see your point.

"I'd like to see you answer these questions"

"Do you think the falling away is big?" My wife sometimes asks me questions like that and I learned that there was no right answer except no. In this case I will ask -- define big. You will say numerically. I will ask raw numbers or as a percentage of something. You might answer "pick one". I might say ok, 90 pct of the church. You would be wise and smart to answer "how big is the church then?" And I would say I don't know and that it does not matter. Then we would probably wonder why on earth the other of us does not see it as we do. Then I would say to myself, "I think I will treat Staff as if I'm married to him and say 'no, it is not big.'"



"If you think its big why?"
Naturally, you would ask this after I just said I would treat you the same as a wife who asks that question. Because, Staff, you like to make trouble! ;). You know I am teasing. Seriously, though I don't know how to answer that question. It begs the question of what big is and we are back to who is on first?


"If you think its big and church only where do the numbers come from?(as they are not there presently)". I have zero idea what this means. Define big. Define "church only". Then explain why the numbers matter. Because I am just not following you brother.


"If it small how does it have such an effect?" What effect? The apostasy IS an effect. It is a present ongoing effect.

"If it is small why talk so much about it?" What kind of talk, exactly?



"Does the church restrain evil?" Sometimes it recycles evil and not so much of a strain.



"I havent got many straight answers just the usual blurring."
It might help me be clearer if you would just say the answers you would give. I think you have though and I still do not get it. I am sorry.



If the point being wrestled with is whether the church is the restrainer of 2 Thess. 2, I do not think this path of reasoning gets you to an answer. I personally, as a matter of biblical interpretation, reject the idea that the church is the restrainer.


_________________
Tim

 2015/10/13 18:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by staff on 2015/10/13 17:21:13

Hi Julius,
You in particular have not answered my questions or if so only fter a 100 posts!
So if the church doesnt restrain evil then why have moral human government etc?I didnt say the church restrained all evil.What I asked is did the church restrain evil?
Also you are saying that the world's morals are the same with the church in it or out of it.How can that be?We have no influence in society?
I ask then how come with such a small falling away that the consequence is so great?I didnt get an answer to that?
Yours Staff



staff,

You are so funny. I don't think I know what to do with you. And that's a first. But, let me try to help you.

You phrase a question, I answer it and then you rephrase the same question (change it a little).

You did not ask "does the church have influence in society". You asked, "does the church restrain evil". I answered your question.

Now, I will answer your next question. Does the church have influence in society? Yes it does. We are salt and light. Salt and Light have influence but do not execute wrath for revenge with the power of the sword.

I gave you another answer from Romans 13 about civil governments restraining evil. The Church was not tasked with restraining evil, we were tasked with preaching the Gospel and being salt and light. In order to restrain evil you have to have to use force. That is what Romans 13 is about. Read it carefully. We do execute wrath and avenge with the sword.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I never said there was a small falling away. I don't know, do? And I have no idea what you are referencing when you say, "how come with such a small falling away that the consequence is so great?"

If the church restrains evil it has done a very bad job through the ages. No, the church is not the restrainer and I know you want it to be so you can say the pre-trib rapture will take the restrainer out of the way which is the church.

You know what would be helpful? If you quoted which one of my responses you are responding to. It will help you to be honest with my statements. You see how I quote your responses? I do this because I don't want you to be confused as to what I am responding to and I do it because I want you to know I am not twisting your words. Why don't you quote my responses that you are responding to? It's not hard and it doesn't take any extra time and it removes any misunderstandings. You come up with statements about me saying things that I did not say. I want you to quote my response from now on that you are responding to. That should stop you from adding words to my statements. If you do not do this, I will not reply.

 2015/10/13 18:42









 Re:

staff,

Check out this link: How come the church is not restraining this evil? Or is this considered good?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/reply.php?forum=48&post_id=383063&topic_id=55505&viewmode=flat&order=1

 2015/10/13 19:07
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Julius,
Qoute From You,
No, I don't think the falling away will be a high percentage of the world's population.
And
I never said there was a small falling away. I don't know, do?

You think that the falling away is church only as far as i understand, So it has to be small at the moment then(but later it could be big if their was a harvest)
How could a falling away from a non high percentage of the world population have such a great consequence?
I'm thinking on how to re phrase the question and this would be the same
If the falling away was from a small percentage of the worlds population would it have such great consequence?

The Church Can be both Salt and Light as called and have a restraining effect on evil, one doesnt negate the other.
Isnt that possible?Again I didnt say The restrainer I said restrainer.
Its up to you whether you want to reply,not forcing anyone.I am putting my point consistantly forward.
What I think is this The falling away is big and its global and it couldnt be small,even if it were 50% of the present day church real believers it would be too small.
So something has to give its either the church and its small or its the world and its big or their is a harvest to swell the numbers of the church and they fall away or its none of the above and is something else(i dont know what that would be)I think the church does restrain evil as consequence of us being here and as positive influence on society.For instance when we look through history regarding revival we always read reports about public houses closing,less swearing,higher moral standards etc as effects of revival not just in the saved but the unsaved,
Yours Staff

 2015/10/13 20:50Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Julius
Will Check it out tommorow
thanks Staff

 2015/10/13 20:52Profile









 Re:

Looks like you answered all of your own questions, staff.

 2015/10/13 20:58
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5485
NC, USA

 Re:

quote: "So something has to give its either the church and its small or its the world and its big"

I think your only option here is that it is the Church because you have not yet explained how the "world" can apostasize.

If one half of the true Church fell away, that is a HUGE deal. It would be a tragedy of the ages. It may not be a big deal in relation to the entire earth population, but I can assure you it would be a very big deal to God.

I am not sure where you get the idea that if the apostasy is "great" that it only means great in relation to percentages against the world population. Great can be a term of quantity or quality.


_________________
Todd

 2015/10/14 8:28Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Tmk
But just answer the questions.
Why is it a big deal?
According to Julius the church is not a restrainer?
One sinner is a big deal to a God it doesnt have to be half the Church.One sinner is enough.One Sinner falling away doesnt however mean that the man of sin is revealed.Why does half the church?
Why if the half the Church falls away is it such a big deal and has the consequences son as the man of sin is revealed.
Yes it can be quantity and quality but where does it say that?
Where does it say that he is talking about quantity over quality or quality over quantity.
Again do you really think the quantity is going to be small?
Most Christians dont as far as I can see.
Why if the church doesnt restrain evil in the world would the falling away of half the church have such a big effect?
Yours Staff

 2015/10/14 16:06Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Julius,
Somebody had too!lol
Yours Staff

 2015/10/14 16:14Profile





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