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 Re:

I agree dolfan, and yes the subject of the need for a marriage license has not come up and thanks for bringing it up. I have known several Christians who were married who did not ask the State for permission. There is no law that stops two people from marrying in the "eyes of God".

Here are 5 reasons why you should not get a Marriage License.
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/FamilyLaw/Marriage/5ReasonsNoMarrLicense.htm

Remember, any license, or "benefit" you receive from the State always has strings attached and you end up being giving up some rights and being bound to them.

 2015/9/18 10:23
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

I know of more than one denomination that does not consider common law marriages valid. Only licensed marriages are valid in their eyes. And, to them, a license when issued trumps all other concerns.

I will share this. I actually helped someone once in an ecclesiastical rule case that centered on this issue. A woman wanted to be free remarry after a divorce in this denomination that did not allow it. She was convinced that their position on remarriage was correct, but she also was convinced that her first marriage was not valid. Her first marriage was a sham arranged by compulsion of her grandparents who lied to authorities about her age and who lied saying they were her legal guardians but were not. The lady -- a young teen then -- lived with her actual parents. The denomination also had a rule against accepting annulments. True fact.

Other facts in the story are compelling but irrelevant here. Point is that a license was issued after several deceptions by people with no authority to consent to the marriage, and a sham marriage was entered. The church said she was married. Plain and simple.

We err. Licensing marriage and church treatment of marriage can become messy. Our answers are imperfect and sometimes seriously flawed. Kim Davis is in a mudhole she did not create. More of us will be, too. We need the Spirit of God.


_________________
Tim

 2015/9/18 11:12Profile









 Re:

The people that I know who were married in the sight of God and the Church, and forsook the permission of the State or the approval of a denomination, were not of any particular denomination. They also did not believe in divorce. They belonged to a house church and viewed marriage as seriously as entering into covenant with Jesus Christ.

 2015/9/18 19:00









 Re:

What Should We Do?

Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses.

See http://famguardian.org/Subjects/FamilyLaw/Marriage/5ReasonsNoMarrLicense.htm

Some have said to me, "If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren’t really married." Given the fact that states may soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, "If a man and a man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a State marriage license - who’s really married? Is it the two men with a marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In reality, this contention that people are not really married unless they obtain a marriage license simply reveals how Statist we are in our thinking. We need to think biblically.

You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently pushing to be made law.

When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the marriage in the Family Bible. What’s recorded in a Family Bible will stand up as legal evidence in any court of law in America. Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriages in their Family Bibles. So should we.

(Pastor Trewhella has been marrying couples without marriage licenses for ten years. Many other pastors also refuse to marry couples with State marriage licenses.



 2015/9/20 9:58
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

You know, Julius, as to this last post of yours, YEARS ago I was arguing for this (marriage minus license) among people I know. Christians. They looked at me like I had a horn growing out of my head.

I am more and more amazed, although I should stop it within myself, that Christians remain largely uninformed and unconcerned with being uninformed. The voice of the prophet in the church has been so silent, suppressed and marginalized for so long that a significantly large number of the Body of Christ is almost wholly ignorant.

Now, it is not true that "what's recorded in a Family Bible will stand up as legal evidence in any court of law in America" because most of America abandoned common law marriage long ago. But, that is not to argue against the point of the man's urging about licenses. Just know that he is inaccurate right here and avoid legal advice from pastors as a general rule, however well intended. :)

Pastor Trewhella's use of case law is misapplied to a large extent. I do not want to emphasize his errors of law here. I only want to borrow his citations to make a point he does not make. If anyone reads the page Julius links to, if you don't care to read anything else read the box that contains underlined, bolded quotes from case law, especially the 1990's case that says a marriage is a contract between the spouses and the State. I believe this language monumentally important to the point that it show how we have supplanted God as the "first person" in a marriage and substituted the State. When you read the statements by Justice Kennedy in the Obergefell case that same sex marriage is an essential part of our national community, a clearer picture of the government as supreme moral arbiter presents itself.

I humbly point to a more detailed statement of what marriage really is ( https://someonehastosay.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/a-letter-to-my-young-friend-paul/ ) as a contrast to the boxed quotations from Trewhella's website in the link shared by Julius.


_________________
Tim

 2015/9/20 10:15Profile









 Re:

Sure, I understand. I completely agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, 501(c)3 pastors have stopped a long time ago, informing their congregations of the truth about being married to the state, since they themselves are.

I am keenly aware that as Christians, we have so many "hooks" into the world and the world has so many "hooks" into us, that bringing up things like this seem so strange and foreign to so many. It seemed foreign and strange to me, when I first heard about it. The more I meditated on it, the more I understood.

It would be interesting to let everyone contribute to creating a list of "hooks, snags and traps" the world has in our lives. Everything from debt, credit cards, various types of licenses, public education systems, ad nauseum. This list might be a scary picture of the state of the church's dependence and relationship with the world and I wonder how easy would it be to extricate oneself from these unholy alliances. And they may not all be unholy, but many of them bring with them sorrows, later in life? Now, I am only speaking in very, very general terms, and every Christian has amazing liberty in Christ and we should not judge one another as each man is led by the Holy Spirit and answerable to God, himself. But, I think far too often when the Holy Spirit is telling us to "turn right", we may rationalize and "turn left". I myself have made bad decisions in my early years based on logic and reason and most importantly, training (the way I was raised), instead of the Holy Spirit. It is a process in our lives to understand what the world offers is not always a benefit to us.

There are many, many worldly vehicles that entrap us and bring along with them, many sorrows (later).

I do recognize that I can use knowledge gained from my mistakes to teach my children, a better way. It may not be the most convenient way to the flesh, but in terms of spiritual peace and freedom, it may be an option they would like to know about. Whether they choose it or not, does not change my fellowship with them. We all have to live in this world, and it is certainly not godly to control another man's life. Interesting that the world wants only to provide what is "convenient" for us, yet with this convenience, we do not see the hidden control that the world is exerting over us. The way of the cross is onerous to the flesh and certainly not convenient.

I do appreciate your continued input and stimulation of my mind and spirit.

 2015/9/20 10:36









 Re:

Christianity is a matter of the heart, and therefore we must receive others in love

1Cor_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

...and not to doubtful disputations (for that would not be love)
Rom_14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 2015/9/20 17:00





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