Thank you so much for your eyewitness testimony.Very depressing indeed.I read thru about half of his(bro Yun's) book, and stopped. A sister had lent it to me, she thought I would enjoy it, as she had seen me tugging around the "Diaries of John Sung". I couldn't finish it, and I can't put my finger on why not, except that everything was "too-too". The miracles, the escapes, were all so ......much. I believe that God can do anything, oh sir, I believe That. I just put it down, without prejuidice. Then came this thread, from Sam, and all it had was a single page website, and then an article, where it outlined that the house church elders were "unhappy" with Brother Yun, and now your testimony which I thank you for.All it underlines to me is that man is carnal, and not worthy of any accolades except to say that he, you, me had enough sense to get under the Blood, confess Christ, and believe on Him.Thats what commends us.(and to commend ourselves for accepting God's wonderful salvation, would be the same as commending ourselves for getting off the tracks and stepping out of the way of an onrushing commuter train.)Jesus Christ is He Who commends us, not the stripes on our backs, nor the numbers of sinners that God would deposit in "our" (His)pews.The bad habit we have of lifting men up is positively ruinous.I was feeding on the Prophecy of Isaiah the other day and God gave me this wonderful Snippet of Scripture:"I live in a high and holy place"....Isaiah 57:15b(here's the rest, "but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit,to revive the spirit of the lowlyand to revive the heart of the contrite".)Wonderful!
It is sad if it is true about the prosperity gospel being preached. I first read about K.P. Yohannan and there my heart sang out for his faithfulness to speading the gospel. And so when I heard of the Back to Jerusalem ministry, it seemed similiar to the witness of KP Yohannan. With that said, what can be said of the "Back to Jerusalem Movement?I went to this page and found that there is a rebuttal to Sam's post of a particular webpage. Quote:The Heavenly Man Still a Target for Persecution Many people have asked us for an update on Brother Yun and his family, and we continue to be amazed at the spiritual impact his book has on people all around the world. Numerous emails and letters continue to come in about how God touched their lives through his testimony, resulting in a deeper level of surrender to the purposes of Christ. Anyone who has read Yuns story will know that persecution has been a close companion to Brother Yun since he first met Jesus as a 16-year-old boy. Over the years Yun learned the reality of carrying his cross in China. After he departed for the West in 1997, he found that persecution continued in his life, just in a different form. Instead of physical beatings and imprisonment, he found insidious attacks came to him in the form of slander, gossip and verbal attacks. Just a few of these were outlined in chapter 26 of his book, entitled, A New Kind of Persecution. In recent months the level of attack and accusation against Brother Yun has reached new levels of intensity. Letters and emails are coming in frequently, asking for clarification or a response after people have heard doubts raised about the integrity of Brother Yun, and subsequently about the Back to Jerusalem vision. We have been very hesitant to comment on these accusations, as we believe any kind of public debate on such matters does nothing to advance the kingdom of God. While Brother Yun has no personal interest in defending his own reputation, concerned friends all around the world feel that the time has come for us to answer the accusations leveled against Yun in recent months. The Biblical instruction, Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil (Romans 14:16) has prompted us to write this article. At centre-stage has been a 5-page article released a few months ago by a prominent house church leader in China. It is entitled, The Heavenly Man A Big Con Man of China and is a strong attack on Yuns integrity. The accusations seem to have spread around the world like wildfire via the internet. A website has even been set up, its aim apparently just to destroy Brother Yuns reputation as much as it can.The accusations can be summarized in two main ways: 1. Brother Yun is a con man, stealing huge amounts of money from believers as he travels around the world preaching for Back to Jerusalem.2. Parts of Brother Yuns story are false. To begin with it needs to be noted that the writer of these accusations admits he has never met Brother Yun. Since the article was published various Christians have visited him at his church in southern China, hoping to ask him about his accusations, but he has refused to speak to them about it. To answer these specific allegations, we have asked three men who know Brother Yun well for their reactions. Then, at the end, we also include a short statement from Brother Yun. STATEMENT FROM GORDON HICKSON Co-ordinator of the Back to Jerusalem Foundation in the United Kingdom, on behalf of the entire Board of Trustees for the BTJ Foundation:I have been working closely with Brother Yun and Back to Jerusalem now for several years. During this time I have organized many dozens of meetings for Brother Yun throughout the United Kingdom. For those people who know Yun, and know how his meetings are organized, this accusation that he misuses finances would be totally laughable if it wasnt so serious. The truth is that Brother Yun does not handle a cent of any money that comes in from his meetings anywhere in the world. This has always been the case. He never emphasises donations at all, and has never asked a single person for anything except their prayers. Our experience of Brother Yun in the UK, and other parts of Europe, has been nothing but exemplary. He has personally had a massive impact on the Church in the UK, both through his book and the many meetings he has held with a view to awakening the UK Church to their Missions calling and responsibility. We highly honour his integrity, humility, accountability, and financial transparency. He has no personal access to the finance generated from his meetings, which is all put at the disposal of the Back to Jerusalem vision. The Back to Jerusalem Foundation was set up as a registered charity (number 1103565) in the United Kingdom. Accordingly, BTJ operates according to UK law. We have a board of respected Christian leaders, and are constantly seeking to network with all the major missions agencies that are involved in China. The BTJ Foundation is totally accountable and our finances are audited annually. We are accountable to a board of trustees and all our activities and actions are conducted with integrity. The vast majority of funds end up being used back in China to print Bibles, books, operate training centers, support evangelists and missionaries, etc. This is done through various established mission agencies that have long standing relationships with the house churches of China. So far more than 30 different mission organizations, representing a wide variety of denominations and churches, have attended our Back to Jerusalem forums. There is another BTJ forum coming up in the UK on Monday, November 29. A time has been set aside (16:00 - 17:30) for Brother Yun to personally answer any questions anyone has about his testimony or ministry. If you are interested in attending, or if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Gordon Hickson BTJ Foundation UK Tel : +44 7713 688079 (cell) Email : firstname.lastname@example.org STATEMENT FROM PASTOR WALDEMAR SARDACZUK Honourable President of Aktionskommitee fur Verfolgte Christen (AVC) Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France Brother Yun and his family have been living with us in Nidda, Germany for many years. Weve got to know him and his wife very well. They are members of our church and are a great testimony in their walk with God. I met brother Yun in China many years ago. At that time I would have never thought it possible to meet him in Germany. However, God brought him out so he could be a blessing to the Church around the world. As with all men of God who are used by the Lord, Brother Yun has been the object of much slander, attack and jealousy. I can shed some light on the daily life of Brother Yun and his family. They live here in our town in very moderate conditions. They live in a comparatively small apartment, which they rent. Neither he nor any of his family members drive or own a car. They are totally focused on ministering for the Lord, and have little concern for material things. His manner of life, his conduct, and his family are in accordance with the bible. We are deeply impressed and also appreciate brother Yun's reaction to all the lies, slanders and accusations told about him. Brother Yun has been a great blessing and he is a servant of God who has opened our eyes to the situation of the Christians in China. He has always endeavoured to help the persecuted Christians in his country without any desire for personal gain or glory. Pastor Waldemar Sardaczuk STATEMENT FROM PAUL HATTAWAY Author of The Heavenly Man and Back to Jerusalem booksI appreciate the opportunity to be asked by Back to Jerusalem to write a few words about Brother Yun. I have read the recent attacks on Brother Yun and some of his coworkers with a measure of sadness. Parts of Yuns story, especially his 74-day fast in prison in 1984 and his miraculous escape from prison in 1997, have been declared to be lies by some. Firstly, it should be noted that attacks and slanders of Christian leaders are nothing new. They were a feature of the lives of everyone God used greatly in the Bible, and have been a feature of countless servants of God since. Sadly, they are not new in China either. Recently, while researching for a new book, I read how the Nestorian Christians strongly attacked John of Montecorvino at Beijing in the year 1305. John had baptized 6,000 people in Beijing in the preceding years, but was called a spy, magician, and deceiver of men by the jealous Nestorians. John later commented, If not for all the slanders I should have baptized more than 30,000. As a researcher, I often find it instructive to listen to any conflicting testimony in order to have a more accurate understanding of what is true. The trouble with the present accusations against Brother Yun and others involved with Back to Jerusalem is that it isnt testimony and it neglects positive evidence of reliable witnesses. The accusers were not part of these events they denounce as false. In fact, I soon discovered that many of Yuns accusers have never met him; others have met him briefly years ago in China. When I was researching and writing Yuns book, I determined not to include any testimony that wasnt widely known and accepted among the Chinese believers in the area where it took place, in accordance with the Biblical principle, 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' In the case of Yuns fast and escape from prison, I spoke on separate occasions to eye-witnesses of these events. Their stories were all identical, and after weighing up the evidence, it made a lot more sense to me that I should trust the testimony of godly men and women who were eyewitnesses of the event, rather than pay much attention to critics of the story who were not there and had no real knowledge of what happened. My family and I have come to know Brother Yun quite well over the years. We can state with absolute confidence that Yun is a godly man with a humble heart and has tremendous love and concern for everyone he meets. He always seeks the Lord on every matter and only wants to be an obedient servant of Jesus. The accusations against Brother Yuns integrity are complete nonsense. The same holds for the accusations relating to the handling of Back to Jerusalem finances. Millions of people in the 10/40 Window are perishing without a Gospel witness. May Gods people have His glory as our focus, and the lost as our aim. Paul Hattaway STATEMENT BY EIVIND FROEN Mission leader and spokesman from Norway I have known Brother Yun since the time he left China. We have traveled and ministered together in many different countries around the world. I have seen the tremendous impact his ministry has made, especially in Europe. People are always spiritually blessed wherever he goes. Jesus said that we could tell if a person truly follows him by their fruit. The fruit of Brother Yuns life and ministry are clearly obvious for all to see: hundreds of people introduced to Christ, thousands of Christians dedicated to following the Lord wholeheartedly, and a trail of churches all around the world that have experienced growth and blessing from the Lord after his visits. On a personal level I have seen how Brother Yun has faced many obstacles and much opposition in his ministry, yet he has been quick to forgive. His heart is one of reconciliation and love for people. He has a real kingdom heart in that he is willing to suffer personal loss if it will benefit Gods kingdom. Such people are rare gems in the world today, and we should pray for him. Eivind Froen STATEMENT FROM BROTHER YUN Praise the Lord! I thank all the Christians who have prayed for my family and I, and who have expressed their concern for us. The Lord has been good to us and his mercies are new every morning. In the presence of the Lord I would like to say I hold absolutely nothing against the men of God who wrote the booklet about me, and I have completely forgiven them. In fact, the booklet did not reduce the deep respect I have in my heart towards these men. I know that one day we will embrace before our Father in Heaven and any misunderstanding will be forgotten as we worship the Lamb of God together. Lets put aside all hindrances and march forward hand in hand for the sake of the kingdom of God! If anyone has any questions about my story, or any other enquiry, I am very willing to meet either publicly or privately and answer any questions people may have. Brother Yun If you want more information on a regular basis, e.g. an email newsletter, please send us your details and send it to the following address: email@example.com. If you feel that you are called to be an intercessor for the BTJ vision, please send us an email to firstname.lastname@example.org [b]What is the truth?[/b] Let us continue to search for it.In ChristJeff
great post...I got like 3 million things to say about how Christians tear one another apart...but I'll go sssssshhhhhhh for now.love you bro,Neil
Christians who tear each other apart
_________________Paul R Carley
One point of clarification: The [i]"Back to Jerusalem"[/i] vision originated in the 1940's and had since been revived among Christians in China in recent years. Many in the Chinese churches would agree with this vision though they are not necessarily associated with Brother Yun (Liu).While Brother Yun (Liu) had come to be identified with BTJ, it is important to understand that it is not [i]his[/i]vision, nor is [i]he[/i] the founder of the movement. Even for those who had any doubts concerning Brother Yun (Liu) and associated organisations, few would doubt the vision of fulfilling the Great Commission by bringing the gospel all the way back to Jerusalem.[b]I do think charges of Brother Yun (Liu) being a "big con man" seem too strong.[/b] There are also no definite proof of financial misdealings. [b]However,[/b] it is uncertain how these funds are being funneled into China, and who are the beneficiaries of the donations. It seems to me quite probable that Brother Yun (Liu) and his supporters, in presenting his testimonies, might have given in to [b]sensationalism[/b] and [b]exaggeration[/b], to say the least. The alleged claims of Brother Yun (Liu) representing [b][i]50 million plus[/i][/b] Christians in China and that he represents up to [b]four or five major groups[/b] of the house churches have been seriously challenged (see the link to [i]Evangelical Now[/i]) (and I think that is why pastors such as Samuel Lamb, Allen Yuan, and Moses Xie are so concerned -- all of a sudden, this person unknown to them claims in foreign countries that he represents [i]them[/i]). The fact is, Yun (Liu) is known only to be closely associated with the so-called "Born Again" group, in which some from the fundamental/evangelical wing of the house churches questioned their extremities. So the best he could claim is tens of thousands members from the "Born Again" group (mind you though, there are at least [b]five[/b] separate factions within this group) -- this is still an impressive number, but "50 million+" is gross misrepresentation, the numbers don't tally up.Organizations involved in China ministry also questioned the [b]actual number[/b] of believers being trained in China to be missionaries going out of the country as part of the Back to Jerusalem movement. (See report in [i]Evangelical Now[/i], statements made by Asian Outreach and OMF [formerly [i]China Inland Mission[/i] founded by Hudson Taylor], all reputable East Asian missions organizations).The [b]underlying issue[/b] here is our focus -- is it on Christ, or on a particular person? Why are we so given in to sensationalism? To be honest, there are many unknown Chinese Christians who have varying miraculous experiences like the ones told by Brother Yun (Liu) -- he just so happens to have a Christian media and audience who is ready to be dazzled. And the temptation is there for anyone who receives such a spotlight. A big difference between Watchman Nee and Brother Yun (Liu) is that Nee was well known and received by fellow Christians in China as a gifted expositor and writer long before being introduced to the western world. With Brother Yun (Liu)? He is virtually unknown to Chinese-speaking Christians like myself (perhaps except those within his circle) until we were inquired by others. Isn't that peculiar?
[b]Sam[/b]Thanks for bring up these things and being able to look at them soberly and accurately. I am glad that you have allowed this to rise up at SI because of your knoweldge of the church in China.on this page of the backtojersulam.com website there has been an update posted:[url=http://backtojerusalem.com/Heavenly%20Man%20-%20Still%20a%20Target%20for%20Persecution.htm]backtojerusalem.com/Heavenly...[/url]E: Click here for an important announcement from 8 Chinese Church leaders about Brother Yun, 'The Heavenly Man'. Click here for the original document in Chinese 中文.[i]I am posting it here:[/i]An open letter from 8 Chinese Church LeadersTo the body of Christ within China and overseasAccording to the truth of Bible and for the sake of the unity of the church, we hereby are willing to bear witness regarding brother Liu Zhenying (known in the West as Brother Yun, the author of “The Heavenly Man”), whom we have served together and known deeply over the years. He is faithful servant of God, and of humble and honest character. Brother Liu has been called by the Lord since his youth, and has been serving The Only True God and the gospel with all of his heart and abilities, and he has also given his best for the beloved believers who are suffering in mainland China. Regarding the financial offerings from the saints, he has always conducted himself above board; never has he taken any offering for personal benefit. Regarding his position in work, he does not indulge in self pride or self promotion, furthermore, he has never considered himself the only legal representative of Chinese house church, as some have claimed.Unfortunately, there is “someone” living in Hamburg, Germany, who keeps sending out accusations through the internet, email, letters, cassette tapes and CDs to discredit brother Yun’s reputation. We have checked the accusations thoroughly and found the accusations to be false, baseless and a distortion of the true facts. In addition, certain persons being quoted in the accusations also deny having discredited brother Yun in anyway. They also expressed their displeasure of being falsely used, out of context, and without their consent and by distortion of the true facts. This matter is not merely concerning the reputation of an individual, it is also concerning the witness and unity of the kingdom of Christ, therefore, we just could not simply be a bystander, we are determined to object the false accusations with this open letter and to correct the misperception caused. At the same time, we sincerely hope churches would verify the accusations thoroughly, and not fall into the trap of Satan who wants to destroy the progress of the work of gospel in Europe. Therefore, we have unanimously decided to write this open letter to the churches in China and overseas, to verify the facts, and support brother Yun’s work in various locations. We want to call upon the saints from every corner of the world to heed the call to bring the gospel back to Jerusalem, while waiting upon our Lord’s glorious return.Signatories:Chen Chong HuiWei Gan GaoLin Jian YingBao De NingDing Xi QuanHuang Shu ShenDeg Xin ZheHuang Ai MinEurope Gospel Centre / Various Church Pastors & Co-workers06-Jan-2005, at Paris France.[b]Paul[/b]
Brother Yun spoke here in Dublin last month and I must concur with another post here the gospel was not preached, even allowing for the translation. The church sponsoring the event are deeply into prosperity and most other recent additions to the gospel.
A big difference between Watchman Nee and Brother Yun (Liu) is that Nee was well known and received by fellow Christians in China as a gifted expositor and writer long before being introduced to the western world.
_________________SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
Br Sam wrote:
The fact is, Yun (Liu) is known only to be closely associated with the so-called "Born Again" group, in which some from the fundamental/evangelical wing of the house churches questioned their extremities.
Another thought:Trying to remember Br. Yun testimony, I believe he is in his late 40's or early 50's. The majority of his christian life has been spent in prison or running from those who sought to imprison him. I would have to read again his testimony, but I believe he did not even have a bible during some of his years spent in prison. He did not have the time to become a theologian as we seek after today as signs of someone to be trusted. Without the persecution that came in China, he now resides in another secular region of the world. I pray that God continues to call him out of this world. I pray that he not be tempted by the ways of this world. I pray that God gives him the discernment to recognize the effects of the prosperity gospel as Brother Paul has testified of. In ChristJeff
[b]Greg[/b]:On that open letter from "8 Chinese Church Leaders" ([i]How would you understand this phrase?[/i]) you have posted (which rallies for Brother Yun (Liu)), in contrast to the one that I have posted (which raises doubts about him):I have very little knowledge of these "Chinese church leaders," but of those I recognize:- Bao De Ning, is really the Chinese name of an American, [b]not[/b] Chinese. He pastors a church in Hong Kong, [b]not[/b] China.- Deng Xin Zhe, is a pastor of a local Chinese congregation in Hamburg, Germany, [b]not[/b] China.Moreover, a web search of "Europe Gospel Centre" in English, traditional Chinese, and simplified Chinese, yielded [b]nothing[/b]. I have no idea what this organisation is.Finally, I note that the document was signed in Paris, France. Most likely, the signatories are [b]"Chinese church leaders"[/b] in the sense of people involved in Chinese ministry in the overseas.Such a statement could hardly compare to the ones from Samuel Lamb, Allen Yuan, Moses Xie, etc. (try a web search for these names) who raised concerns about the "heavenly man".I am quite disappointed by the use of the ambiguous line, "An open letter from [b]8 Chinese Church Leaders[/b] to the body of Christ within China and overseas". While it is not a lie, it gives the [b]false impression[/b] that it came from [i]within[/i] China from [i]house church[/i] leaders who do not share the views of Lamb, Xie, Yuan, etc.I don't like all this smell of politics and propaganda. *sigh*May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Dear Brother, I never said you were one who tore others apart, I thanked you for your eyewitness testimony. My apologies for any misunderstanding.Neilps..the whole thread to me is UTTERLY and completely depressing, and I wish Sam had exercised a bit of ......caution in posting it....but he did, and there it is.