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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If the equation were that simple we could express 'thou shalt not have an absence of love for the LORD thy God'; which can't be right?



Maybe more correctly we would say, "Thou shalt not take the love that belongs to God and give it to another." If we take this angle it would seem that words such as 'affections' and 'delight' come into play. I have heard the definition of 'whoredom' to be, "To take the love that belongs to the one and give it to another." Could it be that 'hate' is the refusal to rightly allocate our love to someone that God has said deserves it?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/9 13:26Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Taco,

Quote:
Selfishness is probably the opposite of love, true love. It is love of self which is really no love at all given that love is giving.



I am thinking about another way that love seems to be defined:

[b]"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."[/b] (Romans 13:10)

This seems to indicate a conscious carefulness not to bring evil or destruction upon a person. So could it be that love has [i]both[/i] positive and negative characters. Love 'does' certain things and 'does not do' certain things towards a neighbor, etc.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/9 13:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am thinking about another way that love seems to be defined:

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:10)

This seems to indicate a conscious carefulness not to bring evil or destruction upon a person. So could it be that love has both positive and negative characters. Love 'does' certain things and 'does not do' certain things towards a neighbor, etc.

I think this is an attribute of love rather than a definition. It is not really comprehensive enough to be a 'definition'.

Here is an interesting verse: “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal. 5:14, KJVS) The pedants among us might be tempted to say 'how is that "one word"? In fact the English phrase 'thou shalt love' is "one word" in Greek; agapEseis meaning 'thou shalt love...' This single Greek word gathers togehter the whole law; “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matt. 22:37-40, KJVS) These two commandments are simply an exposition of the single Greek word "thou shalt love".

It is easy to see why the Wesleyans' preferred expression for "Full Salvation" was "Perfect Love".


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/9 14:52Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Bro. Ron B

That's what I meant exactly. Now could you fine tune the use of each? I know it's important to understand the differences but don't have a good handle on those differences , or a good working knowledge of greek. ( i think thats what it was written in?). Thank you---Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/5/9 16:03Profile









 Re: from a PM....

...my response:

Please consol yourself with John 14:21. Jesus promises that if we keep His commandments, that is love our neighbor as ourselves (charity = love in action that expects nothing in return), we will be loved by the Father, and Jesus Himself will manifest Himself to us. Glory to God. Don't keep love bottled up. Give it away. Warning, it takes and investment of time and some labor to love. Love God with all your heart in all we do and say. Love our neighbor as ourselves. Praise God, we will be loved by the Father...Alleluia, and Jesus will manifest Himself to us. Somebody ought to shout.

 2005/5/9 21:21
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Bro. Ron B

Hi dohzman
do you mean the two 'English words' love and charity? The word 'love' as properly understood by the context of the NT does not need an extra contribution from the word 'charity'. To say that charity is 'love given without thought of payback' is really to dilute the word love as a translation of 'agape'; as love, God's love, is just that 'love without thought of payback'.

Everything that Lahry want to put into the word 'charity' is already in the word 'love' and to suggest that 'charity' adds something is really only possible by diluting the concept of love.

Imagine an equation. If Lahry is right then the equation is

love + charity = true love

but if this is right and you remember your algebra then

love = true love - charity

but the Bible word 'love' [u]does not mean[/u] love without expression, and to imply that it does seriously weakens the word 'love' to the extent of redefining it; which is why I have stuck so tenaciously to this point.

I am being pedantic but not out of stubbornness but out of a passionate belief that love must not be seen to be less than the far weaker concept of charity.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/10 2:38Profile









 Re:

Hi Ron,
I'm having a hard time discerning why you would address Doz with comments about what I wrote.

I think I'm finally understanding our failure to communicate. I'm not disagreeing with you.

When I was young, charity was a common word. Especially with my religious upbringing. When the modern translators substituted charity for love, they did not change the scripture, they changed what was being communicated. I think the position I hold is that charity better communicates the intent of scripture, unconditional, deep, personal enderement better than the word love. When I hear love, I think of a condition of the heart, a feeling. But when I hear the word charity, I think of love in action without thought of payback.

What God gave to us as agape was clearly beyond our ability to payback. We were hopelessly lost. The expression of His love was Yeshua, the Messiah, and what He did for us on Calvary. For God so loved...... Would it be so incorrect to say that "God so lavished the world with charity"? That does not bother my spirit. If it does yours, I think it may be because of our being from different spots on the planet and different walks. But to me, just as faith without expression is dead, so it love without expression. Charity is expression of love to me. I'm not tryin to alter anyone's theology. I just think that many church people today have lost this understanding and have a false sense of obedience to God. That is the bottom line. I'm concerned for anyone who may not clearly understand what being a christian is all about.

Once again, God bless you for your wonderful gift and your gracious sharing here. I know I can speak for all, you are a blessing and a treasure in an earthen vessel.

In His mercy and grace,

Lahry

 2005/5/10 8:05
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,

Quote:
I think this is an attribute of love rather than a definition. It is not really comprehensive enough to be a 'definition'.

Here is an interesting verse:
“For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal. 5:14, KJVS)



When I read your post yesterday I immediately thought- "silly me!" Sometimes I wonder if my brain is fully enguaged. Of coarse, after a little reflection it comes back into focus.

Galatians 5:14; [b]the whole law is fulfilled in one word...[/b] takes me right to the commandments. We know that there were 10 at first, but the Jews claim there were laws before that known as the 'noachide' or 'noachain' laws. This would have been 7 laws basically that they called 'categories.' Then after the New Testament period they sat down and wrote out 365 'negative' and 248 'positive' commandments beginning in Genesis from the 'Torah.' I don't give a ton of weight to this but it is interesting that there are many do's and don'ts that describe all the various characteristics of love. Yet, how can one [i]define[/i]love?

I have to think about how "Christ loved the Church" in contrast to how Paul says we should love our wives. Two things he said was to "nourish" and "cherish." When I think of 'nourish' I think of 'provision' or giving; or of... "providing for his own..." lest he be worse than an infidel. When I think of 'cherish' I am thinking of undivided affection. Giving all the affection that rightly belongs to her. Now the word epithumia comes to mind as when our Lord said he desired with desire to eat the Passover with the Disciples. Where did this great desire come from? Was it a manifestation of the deep feeling of affection He had for His sheep? What gave rise to this 'longing' (as it were) to spend that time with them?

This was not 'mechanical' love. This was not a love that is taught. The law was not made for a righteous man and surely it was not made for those who really love 'someone'. It was made for those who did not love 'everyone'. Surely everyone loves someone. But there was never someone that loved everyone. The law exposed to us those whom we 'loved less'. By our behavior we know who we do not 'love.' Yet, can we mechanically go through and obey the commandments and it really be love? Can love be fabricated by keeping the law? Maybe it could- but it would seem to lack the deep affection that when present needs no law.

Could this be so?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/5/10 8:59Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Bro. Ron B.

I know that the word agape in its different tenses means something different , almost like looking at different facets of a diamond. I just don't have a working knowledge of the ancient languages(greek/hebrew/latin/syric--sp?) to be able to refine and mine out the fuller picture of God's love. I was wondering if you could give me some examples of how love (agape) is used with its different tenses and how that can translate into life. Thank you. Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/5/10 9:15Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I'm concerned for anyone who may not clearly understand what being a christian is all about.
.......>>>>> that's a Lahry quote... Bro. I think you're right here. Most people in the church have a mixture of improper teaching on the subject as well as the influence of hollywood and advertising medias. I don't think the church really understands what love is. Maybe if we had to chose physical death inorder to spare our fellow christians lives in a persecution type environment we'd be better equiped for agape toward one another?


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D.Miller

 2005/5/10 9:30Profile





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