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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sad but True

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

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 Re:

Dear Phillip,

You wrote: "All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41)".

That is not actually right. Read it again, It is after the 1000 years that the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire. See Rev 20 below.

Rev 20:11
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them."

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

Rev 20:13
"The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

Rev 20:14
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15
"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."


I think at the end of the tribulation period when Christ returns that there will be many un-regenerate nations and people who will populate the earth. If it was only believers that makes no sense. Do you really think any (few) who get saved during the tribulation will get a second class salvation and not be part of the church?
the great multitude that 'come out of the tribulation' is the church, not some amazing mass conversion during this period. That will not happen. Folk will not easily choose the Lord at that time. The pressure to conform will be much greater than anything ever experienced on earth before.


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Dave

 2015/10/26 11:46Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
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 Re:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

"Both"

This is at the end of the tribulation;

Revelation 20:1-5 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then at the end of the 1000 years the great white throne judgement for the rest of the dead.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/10/26 14:47Profile
Heydave
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 Re:

Both= Beast and False prophet.:)

Both,not all!


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Dave

 2015/10/26 15:39Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Quote: """Both= Beast and False prophet.:)

Both,not all!"""

Ok, any left were slain with the sword of His mouth, The Word of God, so where do they go?

Does this work? All dead that worshiped the beast at the end of the Tribulation?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/10/26 16:57Profile
Heydave
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 Re:

No. does not work!

Rev. 19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Rev. 19:21
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

The context here is those who are gathered against the Lord and His army in battle. Not every person on the face of the earth will be in those armies.

There will be 'nations' left after the Lord's second coming. Otherwise who will He rule with a rod of iron? If there only believers in the millennium, why does He need to rule with a rod of iron?

Rev.19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Well that's how it seems to me! We will find out one day soon.


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Dave

 2015/10/27 5:16Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello Phillip as to your post 26/10

It is not me that states that the rapture is last it is the words of Paul himself in 1 Thess 4. Sadly today there is a whole doctrine and focus on the rapture. There is not a doctrine on the rapture spoken by anyone in scripture, in fact Paul only used the word ONCE in relation to our Resurrection and Paul clearly stated that it would take place after the Resurrection. The Doctrine that Paul did write was on the Parousia (coming) of Christ and at that coming the Resurrection. Paul spoke of the Resurrection and the Coming of Jesus many times. Paul stated very clearly that the Resurrection takes place at the coming of Christ.
Paul only taught two Resurrections as did Jesus and as did God. Jesus made it very clear that the Resurrection takes place at the end of the Age, Jesus made it clear that he will raise us at the Last day, Jesus made it very clear that he will be coming after the Tribulation period has ended. God himself stated when the First Resurrection takes place, do we take away from what God states??

As to those of the nations that are alive on earth at the First Resurrection, it must be noted that those that have been killed for their faith during the Tribulation are actually in that First Resurrection, if that is the case then so are those that are alive and have trusted in Christ during that same Tribulation.

You have a decision to make just like us, do we elevate a book by Dr Younce or do we elevate the Word of God, I would suggest to you that you lay down the book of man and pick up the Word of God, align yourself with His words.

Again give me one clear verse that states that Jesus is coming before the tribulation, give me one verse that states that a resurrection takes place before the First Resurrection?

 2015/10/27 17:36Profile
drifter
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 Re:

Some people have the attitude, although they may not say it, that people who believe in the pre-trib rapture are unbelievers, or at best, deluded. Yet some powerful men of God, like David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill, believed in the pre-trib rapture (that's right!). You can be anointed with either position, just like some powerful men of God have been Calvinists, and some Arminian (and some in between).


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Nigel Holland

 2015/10/27 18:14Profile
budgie
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Posts: 266


 Re: To Phillip re those alive on earth at Christs coming

Hello Phillip, I would like to suggest to you the following

It is an example only, in the Book of Daniel it is made very clear in all of the visions and prophecies that the Kingdom area of Babylonia, where the Media Persia, and Greece invaded is very important to God, it is called his kingdom area. It is where the first kingdoms were established and it is where the last kingdom focus will be at the coming of Christ.
It does not say Australia or New Zealand or Philippines, very clearly the Middle East area. Jesus makes it very clear that it is the area of Judea where the Abomination of desolation takes place, as does Daniel, as does Paul as does Revelations and Joel etc.

There will be a kingdom in that area that will come with a ruler and with the aid of 10 other rulers in that same middle east area and there is much written about that person and area.

As an example Today we have a rise of Islam where they state clearly that it is blasphemy to declare that Jesus is the Son and that God is a Father, they are actually beheading people that declare that Jesus is the Son of God, this is the Spirit of the antichrist.

We see this massive Islamic uprising in the middle east and it is growing but it is also destroying those who do not support it, it is against Israel and the Jews and also Christians as well as non believers. It is tragically playing out before our eyes.

If and I say If this empire of Islam is the beast kingdom that arises with the antichrist and they gather together against Israel and they surround Jerusalem, and the nations that area around also send their islam soldiers does that mean that all people on earth are muslims?? No it does not

Are all muslims? No are all Christians? NO are all Jews? No Do all people worship the image? No

If it were that Islamic army when Jesus comes he would destroy those armies that are gathered around Jerusalem to destroy Jerusalem, the very people that declare the Antichrist Spirit that Jesus is not the Son of God and that God is not the Father of Jesus. These same people behead these people, these same people demand servitude of allah and where there mark of servitude on their foreheads and right arm.

If all believers are in the First Resurrection and Jesus destroys all of the Islamic armies gathered around Israel then what would be left on earth would be those that were not believers in Christ and were not supporters of the anti Christ army.

Believers would be in their Immortal bodies, the beast, prophet and his armies and worshippers of the beast would be destroyed, that leaves the mortal people of the nations who were not Believers and also did not worship the Islamic beast.

As I have said it is just an example

Jesus makes it very clear that their will be nations for us to rule over on earth

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Jesus will smite the nations but there are also nations that He will rule over as do we

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

There are still nations alive who are not immortal otherwise why would God say that Satan is to be put in chains so that he does not deceive those same nations that are alive on earth.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The First Resurrection is the First Resurrection just as God declares

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed are those that are in the first Resurrection

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It does not say blessed are those in the first rapture.

Please Phillip let the authority of Gods Word be your doctrine, not a doctrine of man that contradicts every word of God.

There is not one verse to support a Coming or Resurrection before the Tribulation, No not one.

 2015/10/27 18:15Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello drifter

Drifter you said the following

Some people have the attitude, although they may not say it, that people who believe in the pre-trib rapture are unbelievers, or at best, deluded. Yet some powerful men of God, like David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill, believed in the pre-trib rapture (that's right!). You can be anointed with either position, just like some powerful men of God have been Calvinists, and some Arminian (and some in between).

I do love you brother and I am not one to say what you have just said, but what I do know is that we must and I say must allow scripture to determine or doctrine, not the words of man.

There has been many wonderful men of God that have taught in error, that does not make them a non believer, it just means that they were in error with some part of their doctrine.

Today is no different, we must always be aware that we are responsible for what we teach, and what we teach must align with clear scripture. Today there is not one clear scripture to support a Pre Trib Coming or Pre Trib Resurrection. Scripture is very clear that it is after the Tribulation has ended, these are the words of Jesus, paul, John, God himself. I dare not go against the words of God.
There is not one scripture to support a pretrib view, No not one.

I would challenge you to support scripture and find where there is one.

God himself declares where and when the First Resurrection takes place.

Jesus himself declares when he will come and he said it clearly that it is after the Tribulation has ended.

Man thinks he knows better and states that it is before the 7 year tribulation, man thinks he is better than Jesus himself. Jesus stated that of that day and hour of his coming after the Tribulation has ended no man knows, but after the Tribulation has ended and the signs are seen in the sky then look up as our redemption draws near, then he is at the door.

Give us one verse to support a pretrib view, if you cant then lay down the doctrine that is not based on scripture and stand on what scripture clearly states.

Jesus says he is coming after the Tribulation period is over. God says the First Resurrection takes place when the Bride has finally made herself ready which is after the great city the whore has been judged mystery Babylon

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

God says that the Bride is clothed in the Righteousness of the saints, look at what Comes next, It is Jesus and he destroys the Beast and the First Resurrection has taken place.

If it is the First then it is the first, there can be no other resurrection before this otherwise it would not be the First.
The First Resurrection takes place when Christ comes and destroys the beast and false prophet and armies and satan is bound for 1000 years, not 1007 years.

 2015/10/27 18:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Heydave on 2015/10/27 5:16:33

No. does not work!

Rev. 19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Rev. 19:21
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

The context here is those who are gathered against the Lord and His army in battle. Not every person on the face of the earth will be in those armies.

There will be 'nations' left after the Lord's second coming. Otherwise who will He rule with a rod of iron? If there only believers in the millennium, why does He need to rule with a rod of iron?

Rev.19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Well that's how it seems to me! We will find out one day soon.



The "kings of the earth" is a phrase we often see used in Revelation (1:6; 6:15; 17:2; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24; 16:14; 18:3,11,23).

It can refer to many different types of earthly/worldly rulers (power brokers) who rule nations, religions, organizations. The Pope of a religion, a Dictator or King or President of a nation, ecclesiastical heads, etc., etc. Though, Satan accomplishes his most insidious control for lust and power to control people through religion.

The earthly powers are not aware of Jesus Christ's victory, but it is He that has won the victory over all satanic and earthly kingdoms.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Even though, the earthly powers are not aware, the ultimate consummation of Christ as Victor over all will soon become evident.

We see in the scriptures, from the apostle's writings that the "last days" began after Christ rose from the dead. We have been in the last days now for over 2,000 years.

 2015/10/27 23:05





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