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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sad but True

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

Online!
 Re:

Budgie,

Thank you for the link to the film. I was not aware of it and it looks interesting. I will see if I can get a copy in the uk. The list of teachers involved in this film looks very good and credible.

I believe this is a very important issue in these days. I recently read the book by Jacob Prasch "Harpazo" which also deals with this subject. Quite heavy in depth book, but makes some very good points. You might want to check that out.


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Dave

 2015/9/19 16:59Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To HeyDave

Thanks HeyDave

Thanks for your response, the price of the DVD is very reasonable and it has over 4 hours of information.
It is funny that you mention Jacob Prasch as I am currently watching some of his videos.

You order it direct from his website and cost of mail is excellent

I live in Australia and received it quickly and cheaply

I have also just ordered a CD from them re pre, mid and post trib looking at all scriptures

Shalom to you Brother

 2015/9/19 20:12Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To TMK

Thanks for your response TMK

I would agree with you totally if Jesus said the following words

But of that day and hour of my coming before the tribulation no man knows.

But Jesus did not say those words, quite the opposite.

In Matthew 24 verse 36 Jesus very clearly stated But of That Day.

In the Greek That word is a Demonstrative Pronoun and virtually means (that very same, self same day)
This implys that Jesus is talking about the Day of His Coming which He spoke about in verses 29-31

Jesus is not making reference to any other day, He is very clearly talking about the Day of His Coming which takes place sometime after the signs are seen in the Sky and that is sometime after the Tribulation has completely ended which we know is only 3 and a half years long.

We know that Jesus is talking about that Coming as He states this in verse 37 making reference to That Day Of His Coming, which is the very question the Disciples asked.

Jesus even instructs us to learn a parable regarding trees and that when summer is near the trees start to bud, Do we know the exact day summer starts NO but the signs are truly seen with the eye. Jesus did not say that Summer starts as soon as the buds start, Jesus said that Summer is near when you see the signs.

LIKEWISE Jesus said when we see all these signs we know that He is at the Door and we know our Redemption is near and we Know to Look Up. Jesus did not say that that was the Day, He said it is near and at the Door.

Do we still know the Day or Hour NO
But we do know that once (all) His Prophesied events are fully seen then we really need to watch as it can then happen at any day

Jesus even tells us when to look up and when He is at the Door.

All of Matthew 25 is talking about THAT very same Day of His Coming which He so clearly stated would happen after the Tribulation has completely ended.

No where in Scripture does Jesus state that He is Coming before the Tribulation.

But it clearly states in many passages in Old and New Testament that He is Coming after the Tribulation.

God Himself tells us when the First Resurrection takes place which is after the Tribulation has ended.

Jesus destroys the Antichrist at His Coming.

 2015/9/19 20:28Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Budgie;

Thank you for an answer to my question.

This is Mark; Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is Paul; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why is there such a stark difference in the two? One unto the elect, Israel and one unto the Body of Christ He being the Head of His Church>

One after the tribulation unto judgement and one unto the gathering of His body the Church meeting Our Lord and Head of His congregation, "in the air" catching us away, raptured, not judgement on this earth, Jesus then standing on this earth and sitting on the Throne of David, after the Tribulation and the Body of Christ being with Him at His physical presence on this earth, different from These final words which speak of our comfort, one all together in Him by these words, "caught up together with Him in the air."

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God, My Savior, My Brother and my Love:\

Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/9/29 16:36Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello Christ in You

Can you please give me a clear verse where Jesus states clearly that He is Coming before the Tribulation, I have looked and I cannot find any, I can only find where He clearly states that He is Coming after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs are seen in the Sky. This is also repeated in Revelations and Daniel.

Can you also please give me a verse in the New Testament that clearly states that there is two comings, one before the Trib and one after the Trib, I can only find one and that as after the Trib.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that there is two Resurrections of the Just as I can only find the One Resurrection of the just.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that the wheat will not stay with the tares until the end of the Age when Jesus comes and Resurrects the Just.

Can you also give me one verse that clearly states that the Rapture takes place before the Resurrection.

Can you also give me one verse that states that the Resurrection takes place before all of the prophecies regarding the antichrist are fulfilled, the prophecies must be fulfilled exactly as stated for him to be revealed.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus stated that he would raise us before the last day as I can only find where He states that it is the Last Day.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus states that he will be coming twice and with Trumpets at all occasions as I can only find that it is one and not only one but it is the Last Trumpet, this also is confirmed in Revelations.

I am not sure why you used this ending

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God

Is this not from Matthew 24 where Jesus clearly states that He is Coming after the Signs are seen in the Heavens, Shout, voice of Arch Angel and Trumpet of God.

Paul said that there is an order to the RESURRECTION singular, Christ first and afterwards at His Coming all in Christ.

That sounds like one Resurrection and if they are all in that Resurrection then there are not any Just left for another Resurrection, that is why it is another 1000 years before the second and Last Resurrection.

Please give me some clear verses from the word of God alone in your response, no theories.

Scripture is for doctrine not the words of man.

 2015/10/13 22:30Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:


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Phillip

 2015/10/19 15:07Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Budgie:

I am getting old 76 and It is challenging for me to answer individual questions asking for specific scriptures to prove the bibles stance on Pre-Trib. There is a very comprehensive study of the end times that Dr. Max D. Younce has published and is online. If you dare to study I would venture to say all the questions you ask of me would be completely and comprehensively answered.

http://heritagebbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/iknowwhoholdstomorrow_w_charts.pdf

Especially pages 91 forward.

Thank you for your time and answers to my questions.

The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/10/19 17:39Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Thank you Christinyou

Thank you Christinyou for your reply and honesty, while I appreciate your age and have great respect towards you I am saddened that you cannot respond with one clear verse for the doctrine that you hold.
I was fortunate enough as to have never been brought up Pre, Mid or Post, I was fortunate enough to have not been given a Schofield bible.
I was astounded at the many differing doctrines of men regarding the return of Christ and began to search the scriptures to find out what Jesus and many others had to say, I find no errors in scripture and perfect harmony in scripture regarding the Coming of Christ.

You stated to me that you dare me to read Dr, Younce, I have read many and I say many various authors regarding the Coming of Christ on all sides, I have watched many videos by Chuck Missler etc. One thing that concerned me was the twisting of scripture and that there is not one single verse in all scripture that states that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus Himself stated clearly that His Coming would be after the Tribulation has ended and Jesus stated that this same day of His Coming after the Tribulation has ended no man knows the 24 hr day or what hour of that 24 hour day. Jesus said when you see ALL the signs then look up as that is when He will be at the Door.

You stated
The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

GIVE me one verse that states that, it is not found in scripture, you will not find one verse to support that false teaching.

Jesus Himself stated that the wheat and tares would remain together until the end of the Age when He will send His angels to reap and the Resurrection takes place.

Give me one verse where Jesus states the Resurrection 7 years before the End of the Age, you wont find one.

God himself states when the First Resurrection takes place, but man teach a Doctrine that contradicts the words of God.

Paul declared that there is an order to the RESURRECTION, first Jesus then all in Christ at His Coming.

Resurrection is Resurrection and Paul tells us the Order and so does God, I will align myself with what scripture states not the lies of man.

Paul even told us what must happen before Christ Comes and gathers us to Himself, but some men say total contradiction to the word of God and say that Jesus will come before hand.

What is Truth, the words of Paul, Jesus, or God Himself or the theories of man that tickles the ear.

God said to not add and to not take way from what is written in Revelations, if God states when the FIRST Resurrection takes place then it is True.

The PreTrib view is not based on any scripture but on the words of men.

Give me one clear scriptural verse where the Word of God states that Jesus Comes before the Tribulation and that the Resurrection takes place before the Tribulation.

One clear scriptural verse to base your theory on.

 2015/10/22 20:44Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To Christ in you

Paul made it very clear in 2 Thessalonian 2 that it was deception to believe in the Coming of Christ prior to the Apostasy and prior to the revealing of the Son of Perdition.
Paul made it very clear to not believe any letter, word or spirit but to believe the word of God.
If the above is true then anyone that preaches against the very words of Paul is actually preaching deception.
I think that it is very wise to heed the words of Paul and not listen to anything that contradicts the word of God.
Do not be deceived for Christ will not come and will not gather us to Himself until the Apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition takes place.
Paul also stated that Jesus will destroy that same son of perdition at that very same Coming.
Nowhere in Scripture does Paul say that Jesus is Coming another two times.
Paul only taught of two Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the unjust and Paul himself desired to be in the Resurrection of the Just.
The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last.

 2015/10/22 22:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last."""

If the Rapture is last; who will be left in the 1000 reign of Christ with those that are raptured. If those that are raptured have their glorified bodies, they will not have any children, for there is neither male or female in the Kingdom.

If all the lost are cast into the lake of fire. Who will be left to reign over. All those that come out of the tribulation must live until the thousand years is up and those that join Satan and rebel against Christ and war against Him must come from the ones that did not take the mark of the beast and those that did and lied and are saved if not already dead, of whom Christ and the Body of Christ and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will rule and reign trying to save many who will be born in the thousand year reign. If the rapture comes at the end of the tribulation, what the scripture teaches is not possible. Only those that take part in the first resurrection (rapture), the Bride of Christ, the born again Christ in them, sons' of the Father will rule and reign in the millennium those that have taken part in the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage supper of the Lamb, those that; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There can be no Post tribulation rapture or partial rapture.

1. All raptured Christians receive their glorified bodies (Romans 8:22,23; and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
2. There are no children born to glorified bodies. (Matthew 22:23-30
3. All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41)

Quote by Dr. Younce;

""If the Rapture is post Tribulation, several problems arise with impossible solutions. Where do the mortal bodies come from of those that are born during the Millennium and rebel at the conclusion of the Millennium? (Revelation 20:7-10). There would be no lost people alive to have children, so they cannot come from them. All of the saved have their glorified bodies. No children can be born to them as a result of a Post Tribulation Rapture Remember; at the end of Christ’s 1,000 Year Reign there are unbelievers who will give their allegiance to Satan in an attempt to defeat Christ. (Revelation 20:7-10). How would they get their human bodies? Placing the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and the start of the Millennium makes an impossible situation. At the Rapture all Christians have their glorified bodies, which do not produce human beings. All the lost are cast into Hell at the end of the Tribulation Period. Therefore, the philosophy of a Post-Tribulation Rapture is impossible.

The Post-Tribulation Rapture philosophy also leads to other false doctrines. Colossians 2:8 is God’s warning concerning false teachers.""

In Christ: Waiting for; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, (Michael) and with the trump of God: (not the last trump) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is just one proof of the pre-trib rapture, there are many others. This is gathered logical truth finding of Scripture against Scripture to paint the whole picture.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2015/10/26 7:57Profile





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