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Brother Marc...perhaps this is what this sister was referring too...
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
| 2015/9/1 23:41||Profile|
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by passerby on 2015/9/1 23:31:36
I guess, the words of apostle Paul for this is translated as 'wretched'.
The word depravity in my understanding not only denotes external behavior or actions but also the moral state of our hearts or being.
It's interesting that the Catholic church has changed the song, Amazing Grace by John Newton.
Instead of “that saved a wretch like me!” they changed it to “that saved and set me free.” I think because they have a strong aversion to Calvinism and also, and more importantly, they think unbelievers do a lot of "good" and recognize it as so. But, as we know, "Good" takes on a new meaning when set alongside the Lord Jesus.
Anyway, as unbelievers or believers, man never stands as an independent self. He is either joined to Satan or to Christ. I think this is Satan's best kept secret. If men saw the reality of this they might just run to Christ. Men bear fruit from either the spirit of disobedience or the spirit of holiness. Jesus revealed to us that man is joined to Satan (before salvation) when He said to the Pharisees that "ye are of your father the Devil".
I just wanted to leave that thought with you. And also, remember Lucifer said, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH." I think, he is still whispering that to Christians who are trying to "be like God", but are forever struggling to be the branch connected to the tree/vine. We can't be like Christ only Christ can be like Christ. Ideally, we must be joined to Him as a branch is joined to the vine. And the life in the branch is from the vine and the fruit that appears on the branch is from the vine.
Branches abide naturally and at ease. They don't wake up in the morning, on the ground and have to figure out how to get back on the vine. They are never off of the vine. I think Jesus meant for us to get on the Vine, stay there and relax. But, this might offend the "trying to become" camp because what would they do if there is nothing to do, but abide.
Satan hides his former indwelling from man for a reason.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.
He would love to boast about his greatest glory of indwelling man, but he is fearful that he would lose many. So, he just infects man in every pore of their being with the understanding that they are just themselves, independent selves, not joined to him. Satan has fooled men in thinking they are not cups, vessels or branches. Cups and vessels that hold something (someone) and branches that are joined to something (someone). It is quite a deception you will have to admit, because most men have not figured this out, especially in the church for there are so many still trying "to be like Jesus", rather than letting Jesus live through them by being the cup, vessel or branch. We cannot be the Vine, and neither can we be the treasure in earthen vessels. That role is already taken.
Now, that we don't have to be God, God can be you and God can be me (hopefully, by now you know what I am talking about).
2Co_4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
In the words of Martin Luther, "God wants to make us into a "race of Christs". (The Gospel According to Job, Mike Mason).
Makes a lot of sense. I have been with many dear saints through the years and have often felt that I was in the Lord's presence when I was with certain saints. Amazing how the Lord delights in expressing Himself through us cups and vessels and branches. :-)
| 2015/9/2 1:18|
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Romans 9: 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
| 2015/9/2 6:45|
This world is not my home anymore.
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I remember a few years back when the church all agreed that China would invade America someday. Well, someday has come and gone and they've invaded us without one soldier and shell.
The Jews had an open invitation to the kingdom. And in covenant said all the Lord has commanded we will do. They continually pursued their own ends and failed to enter. The Master then sends out to the highways and biways. That's the Gentiles (you and me).
When you start splitting hairs like this, you miss God.
It's not the Bible that states that the poor, the halt and blind are ONLY Gentiles. By splitting hairs I meant that when you say it can "ONLY" mean this, then you've boxed God in.
And what I'm saying is, keep on open mind on how God operates because it's rarely what we fight and die for in arguments and theology (how we see it and believe it).
| 2015/9/2 7:25||Profile|
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Romans 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
| 2015/9/2 8:55|
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" But this might offend the "trying to become" camp because what would they do if there is nothing to do, but abide."
I do not believe this statement has come from the CHRIST who abides in us. His heart is to perfect all believers into ONE body. Divisions and camps grieve Him. Christ in me was grieved by the statement.
Was this statement Christ in you leading you to add to the faith of those you perceive to be in "the trying to become camp"? It sounds more like a soulish categorization than the love of the Spirit.
There are many sincere believers who are still simple in their understanding. They may not "see" with your understanding that they are "trying to become" - they simply see it as obeying out of love. They may not even know enough to say "CHRIST in me" moved me to do this; but I believe their simple obedience is more pleasing to God than is portrayed by such a statement that creates a "camp" for you to criticize.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2015/9/2 11:20||Profile|
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Simple obedience is wonderful, but let's not keep believers in the dark. I don't wish for them to struggle, do you?
I actually think many young believers who are enjoying their first love are doing just fine and abiding in the Lord. My post may be more for those who have been deceived by bad theology to leave their first love and place of rest. Young believers are often a reminder to the church of the things we have taken for granted.
My post is for young or old. Anyone who is struggling. Rather than rephrasing the meaning of my post why don't you ask me for clarification?
| 2015/9/2 11:54|
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Ephesians 4: 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
| 2015/9/2 14:02|