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Hey JFW, I appreciate the "intrusion" ;)
Acts 5 is an example of two whom chose to stray and the consequence was dreadful.
That example of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 can perhaps be cross-referenced with 1 John 2:19 ("They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us...")
I agree with you that God keeps us when we put our trust in Him. Just trying to work out the details here:
Can a person who is born again be "unborn"?
His old man - along with his sinful nature - had been crucified with Christ, and he had been resurrected with Jesus as a new creation. Can this entire process be reversed - the new man be reburied, and the old man be revived?
| 2015/8/19 18:34||Profile|
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Yes, if he does not remain in the vine. His life is in the vine.
There definitely is security for a believer. Believing is fluid. A "one time" belief is not locked in stone for all eternity.
| 2015/8/19 18:51||Profile|
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I am Phillip. Do you believe that The Christ birthed in us is made unto us wisdom? For it is not my wisdom that has made me righteousness. Is it our faith that has made us redeemed or is His wisdom in us that has made us righteous unto redemption, by His Faith that is now in us which sanctifies us and make us wisdom, rightousness and redemtion unto salvation?
Is I who live my life or is my life hid in Christ and the life I now life I live by the faith of the Son of God?
My faith and wisdom without the work of Christ in me is hopeless and without merit and cannot save me from anything, even now by the Christ in me, that life that makes me a son of God, still wars with The Spirit and only by the work of the Holy Spirit and the Life of Christ in me am I able to keep striving and labouring to please God our Father.
My mind will and emotions are against God, unless that double edged sword dividing my soul and spirit and putting the Spirit of Christ in Satan's place and then being able to separate my body from my soul-spirit, my flesh would not let me into heaven. Praise God my flesh will die and what is left is of God the Father through Jesus Christ by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
For truly the life I now live I live by the crucified life of the Son of God who has brought me unto His Cross which I have been crucified with Him, and is now my Cross that I take up daily and follow Him.
I always am afraid to put my faith which is by His Faith into words for they divide asunder the soul and spirit of man which is hard to understand and causes strife.
Like Peter who of Paul made things hard to understand.
2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2015/8/19 20:21||Profile|
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I believe brother TMK gave the answer that tracks with my understanding of faith and really like his wording.
Having said that, I'd like to add that a person doesn't have to be "un-reborn" as being reborn is certainly a prerequisite, for our Lord Himself declares it so, it is not a "ticket to heaven" in and of itself. Notice Jesus says "Ye must be born again to enter the kingdom" and doesn't say "if you are born again you are eternally secured in the kingdom",... So (for me) while it's clearly necessary, as before the new birth the kingdom is not much more than a myth to the carnal mind, there is still the condition of obedience/abiding by faith but now it's by His power/grace, being led by His Spirit, with joy from a regenerate heart that desires above all else to see Christ glorified, no matter the cost.
Note that at the close of Matt 7:21 Jesus states it is those that "do the will of my father who is in heaven" also Matt 12:50 and other very similar verses direct us to the condition of obedience. Again not to "get something" but in response to having received something/someone whom we did not deserve.
Probably the clearest example of this for me personally is the 10 virgins parable... 5 were wise, 5 were not... They got comfortable taking their security for granted and lost the fear of the Lord and it cost them dearly.
+ the 1 John scripture you pointed out, lines up (in my mind) with John 6:66- I had not considered its application to Acts 5 but I will, thank you for that insight+:)
| 2015/8/19 20:37||Profile|
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"The soul that sinneth shall die"
In answer the question, Can a person who is born again be "unborn"? Yes, they can die. That simple. But it doesn't have to be that way.
| 2015/8/19 21:35||Profile|
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The truth is somewhere in the middle between Calvinism/Augustinianism which is one extreme and Pelagianism and Arminianism which is the other extreme. Calvinism believes if you are not Calvinist then you must be Arminianist. There is nothing else. I can quote Calvinists, if you like. But, those are belief systems created by men as they extracted from the Bible, extreme interpretations. Below, we will just see what the Bible says.
This little diagram just deals with Salvation.
Pelagianism states that our willing choice is the determining factor in the participation of our salvation. Pelagianism is thought of as extremely humanistic while Arminianism is not as extreme in its humanistic self-efforts (meaning what we do), it does not totally "effect" our salvation. Evangelicalism also tends to focus on our own actions and performance.
Augustinianism and Calvinism is pretty much the complete reduction of our being in that fallen humanity is deemed depraved (defective) to the point that we are incapable of responding to the Lord's offer of grace. The meaning of grace is misunderstood as divine determinism. This means that God will sovereignly elect/select some for salvation and others for perdition.
There is the Divine initiative and then................... there is Man's response.
Eph 2:5,8 "for by grace you have been saved..." -------------- Eph 2:8 "...saved through faith"
God divinely and dynamically extends His grace -------------- Faith is our response to the Divine activity of God to us via His Son, Jesus Christ (Jn 1:17) and by Holy Spirit, not only initially but continually, throughout the Christian life. Faith puts us in a position of receiving. Faith enables us to be receptive to the Holy Spirit.
"As many as received Him.." Jn 1:12
Acts 15:11 "through the grace of the Lord Jesus -------------- “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” Act 16:31
Titus 2:11 - “the grace of God has appeared --------------------- “salvation through faith in Christ” II Tim. 3:15
II Tim. 1:9 - “saved us according to His own purpose and grace----------------- “chosen for salvation...through faith in the truth” II Th 2:13
I Pet. 1:10 - “this salvation, the prophets prophesied of the grace to come --------------------- “outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” 1 Pet 1:9
The "Finished work" of Jesus Christ which makes salvation available to ALL men is proven a universal objective by the Word of God. No one is elected to perdition. Hopefully, you can now see God's actions and man's responsibility. It takes two to have and maintain a relationship, as we also learn in our natural world.
| 2015/8/19 22:35|
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My intent, hope and plan is to be saved, always.
We must be aware of ourselves, and watchful and accountable to others in the local body. I am far less concerned about "eternal security" than I am false conversion and mislead unbelievers who think they are saved. And, I make that assessment when I see a mirror.
| 2015/8/19 22:57||Profile|
| 2015/8/20 0:01|
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Strangely enough when it comes to solid Calvinist like Paul washer and others like him they are concerned and heavely burdened with false conversions maybe more so then the ariminian , who can often times pronounce people saved who have only made confessions of faith ,
It's all about fruit and good fruit not just any fruit,it's about real life, not a conviction of sin or just feeling the presence of God or the presence of what we might think is gods spirit ,we have been made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end , says scripture,not a wavering fuzzy faith . But the witness of the spirit that cast out all sinful doubt he sets us free from the sin of unbelief,and we never waver in confedence about God or Christ through out our entire walk with God he keeps us and because of the gift of faith which is the result of being set free from sin above all the sin of unbelief , we hold the beginning of our confedence steadfast and endure to the end .
He who is born of God does not continue to sin for gods seed is in him and he can count sin for he has been born of God, of he who is born of God does not sin ,he who sins has neither seen God or known God .
Those that continue to sin or continue to fall back in sin or fall away have neither seen God nor known God ,according to first John gods seed remains in the true believers and they cannot.......
| 2015/8/20 5:05||Profile|
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I don't know about you but after around 17 years inchrist not once have I doubted God or Christ ',,,....
And I can only put that down to the scripture are true and that faith is a gift of grace and some how in gods providence he keeps me ,and the knowledge of this does nothing but humble me and cause to see everything as grace .......
| 2015/8/20 5:20||Profile|