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Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 for all that have sinned / because all sinned

Romans 5:12

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

"for that all have sinned", what does this mean?


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Mark Nash

 2005/5/5 6:12Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: for all that have sinned / because all sinned

Quote:
"for that all have sinned", what does this mean?



It means that we all told a lie, we all said unkind words, we all got mad at someone, we all made mistakes ....... NOT.....

That's the way I used to think. Actually for years, to me, sin was anything that invoked the disaproval of my authorities or peers. I equated their disaproval with God's disaproval. So I learned to be a pleaser - and lived the hypocritical life. It felt righteous however it blocked out my understanding of sin in GOD'S eyes. My faulty understanding of sin kept me from Christ's redemption.

God shoke me out of my illusions, and now, I have a new perception of sin. Here are a few of my thoughts:

Since we are all born separate from God, we learn from birth to trust in humans for our sense of security, worth, and identity. We do not know the love of God.

We all put on "fig leaves" to keep ourselves from seeing our shameful condition and our desperate need for Christ. Our "fig leaves" are our means of survival - before we find Christ. We trust in our "fig leaves" - whether that be our outer selves, our status, our abilities, our defenses, or whatever. We do whatever brings us security and acceptance in this world. That is a sinful passion, and leads to a lot of sinful thinking, attitudes and behaviors. We just keep putting on more "fig leaves" to keep us from seeing and admitting our depravity.

However, Christ does not cover up our "fig leaves". Instead, he desires to remove them and cover us with his redeeming blood -and his Spirit.
So long as we want to cling to securites in ourselves, our righteousness, others, or anything in this world, we live in sin and have alienated ourselves from God.

At some point in our lives we must see that underneath our "fig leaves", we are wretched, naked, blind, and poor. That is perhaps the most painful, shocking experience we endure, but it must happen before we will cry out for Christ's salvation - and turn to him. (repentance)

So, in summery, I'd say that sin is refusing to allow Christ to love us.(forgive us , rule us, etc) That is the underlying sin of the most perverted sinner, or the most "saintly" hypocrite. "There is no difference..." Rom. 3:23

Diane


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Diane

 2005/5/5 9:10Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi roadsign, I think you've misunderstood me, I wasn't asking for a definition of sin, I was asking what that phrase meant in the verse in Romans.

Do you have any light to shed on this?


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Mark Nash

 2005/5/5 16:23Profile
Globachio
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Joined: 2005/4/21
Posts: 20
Baltimore

 Re:

Quote:

Nasher wrote:
I wasn't asking for a definition of sin, I was asking what that phrase meant in the verse in Romans.
Do you have any light to shed on this?



It means what it says.

There's not a person who ever existed who, by nature, isn't lost in sin; who isn't an enemy of God; who doesn't hate Him; who doesn't fall short of His divine standards; who isn't headed for hell.

Pretty simple.

Praise God for Jesus Christ!


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Kevin

 2005/5/5 17:51Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I think Nasher is asking the question as to 'when' all men sinned? Did they sin 'in Adam' or does their first sin connect them with Adam's sin and fall? The first is classic Augustinian/Reformed theology, the second is Finney & Co.

in other words
Re: Original Sin/Constitutional Sin/Congenital Sin
Is there any such thing?

No.
"I object to the doctrine of constitutional sinfulness, that it makes all sin, original and actual, a mere calamity, and not a crime. For those who hold that sin is an essential part of our nature, to call it a crime, is to talk nonsense."
Charles Finney: Lectures on Systematic Theology: Lec 24 Moral Depravity

Yes.
"Sin may be summarised as threefold:
An act, the violation of, or want of obedience to the revealed will of God;
a state, absence of righteousness;
a nature, enmity toward God." C I Scofield


Yes.
"Notwithstanding the depravity of man's soul by original sin, there is yet left a basis whereon divine grace can work for its recovery by spiritual regeneration.
There is, then, besides the evil which supervenes on the soul from the intervention of the evil spirit, an antecedent, and in a certain sense natural, evil which arises from its corrupt origin. For, as we have said before, the corruption of our nature is another nature having a God and father of its own, namely the author of (that) corruption."
Tertullian 197-220 AD was one of the ante-Nicene fathers.


No.
"Paul goes on (Rom 5:12) to picture death as spreading to all men, because all men sinned. Neither the spreading of the sin nor the parallel spreading of salvation through Jesus is automatic - both involve the choice of the individuals." Roger Forster: Faith and Reason p 234


Yes!
"that all who deny this, call it original sin, or by any other title, are but Heathens still, in the fundamental point which differences Heathenism from Christianity. They may, indeed, allow, that men have many vices; that some are born with us; and that, consequently, we are not born altogether so wise or so virtuous as we should be; there being few that will roundly affirm, "We are born with as much propensity to good as to evil, and that every man is, by nature, as virtuous and wise as Adam was at his creation." But here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually?" Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but an Heathen still."
John Wesley; Sermon 44 Original Sin.


No.
YWAM espouses the moral government doctrine of the atonement and as part of that teaching and as regards sin teaches...
"1. Our moral character is shaped merely by our individual acts of sin.
2. If an individual unknowingly commits a sin, it is not a sin to that person and they will not be held to account for it by God.
3. The sin of Adam is not transmitted to us, and it would be unjust for God to pronounce us guilty because of his sin.
4. If God condemns us all because of Adam's sin, God must also save everyone because of what Christ did (Rom. 5:19). This is universalism, and therefore both parts of the argument must be wrong.
5. Our moral depravity is shaped solely by wrong and sinful choices we make."


No.
"A sinful nature is developed in our lives through habitual self-indulgence and subsequently begins to affect everything we do. . . . Thus we concur that a law or sinful nature is present but we must also see that it originated by choice. A good example of this is a junkie bound by an addiction to heroin. He cannot help put [sic] crave drugs; but its origin was in his choices."
George Otis: The God they never knew. (YWAM key spokesman)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/6 3:56Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think Nasher is asking the question as to 'when' all men sinned?



Hi Ron, I think your right :-?

Does it mean:

"Because all have sinned", i.e. because all do sin

"Because all have sinned", i.e. because all commited a sin in Adam

I think the first true


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Mark Nash

 2005/5/6 5:31Profile
Globachio
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Joined: 2005/4/21
Posts: 20
Baltimore

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
I think Nasher is asking the question as to 'when' all men sinned?



If that's true, then as an evangelical Lutheran I have to say that it's the wrong question because there's no "when." Sin comes with conception. e.g., Psalm 51:5.

Which means that, first and foremost, sin is not something we "do," it's something that's done to us. Only in a secondary sense can we ask "when."

But if one insists upon a definite time, then I'd say the first time a baby cries for nothing more than attention. There is "actual" sin, the selfish, "I'm the center of the universe" mentality that comes with our human nature.

Thus I disagree with Forster and Finney. Sin is NOT a choice, it's a given. (So too, salvation is not our choice, it's God's choice of us.)

Finally, I disagree with those who hold that we are born with a defective "imago Dei." Instead I think Scripture teaches that we are born WITHOUT it altogether. Hence the need for regeneration. Otherwise we'd merely need a repair kit, not a new creation.


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Kevin

 2005/5/6 7:19Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 origin of sin

I think that our view of the origin of our sin affects our understanding of Christ's atonement. If I chose to commit sin, then couldn't I have also chosen not to - so why would I really need Christ's atonement? I have a big problem with those who only define sin merely as specific acts - those committed by conscience choice.

If someone has cancer, does it matter when the first evidence appears - either with or without outward evidence, the condition is still fatal - just like our fatal sin conditon.

King David's undersanding of his sinful nature "from conception" Ps. 51 led him to genuine confession and repentance. He wasn't passing the blame (Adam, his parents, etc), and he wasn't saying, "If the circumstances had been different, I could have avoided it." He was facing the core depravity of his heart, and realized that no amount of self-improvement could change that. He needed God's mercy, not a course on holiness.

I believe Christ died for me because I was hopelessly lost in sin - total depravity, not because I chose to commit some sins (Actually I never choose to sin deliberately. I choose to do what seems right. However, afterwards I realize that my motives were sinful.)

Your comment about a baby sinning by crying for attention.... Isn't there also a genuine built-in survial need for affirmation - just as critical as the need for food and good air? Maybe it is because the child is separated from God's love (because of original sin), that he tries to get his unmet legitimate needs met in sinful ways.

PS. I may be misundersanding you:

Quote:
I disagree with those who hold that we are born with a defective "imago Dei." Instead I think Scripture teaches that we are born WITHOUT it altogether. Hence the need for regeneration. Otherwise we'd merely need a repair kit, not a new creation.



Don't we have a great deal of God's image within us: ex a sense of justice, creativity, ability to think, feel - though all distorted by sin and our finite minds. In a recent conversation with an atheist I discovered a lot of God's truths within her. She had more awarenes then many Christians I know - she just wouldn't admit that all truth comes from God.
Sorry, my mind is a bit dull, so can you explain what you mean by "imago dei"?
Diane


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Diane

 2005/5/6 9:32Profile









 Re: for all that have sinned / because all sinned

Hi Globachio, you've sure got me thinking here!

Quote:
Finally, I disagree with those who hold that we are born with a defective "imago Dei." Instead I think Scripture teaches that we are born WITHOUT it altogether. Hence the need for regeneration. Otherwise we'd merely need a repair kit, not a new creation.



Hmm. I've never heard anyone say this before but, is this something you've thought through in the light of scriptures, like

[b]Romans 5:14[/b]
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[b]Colossians 1:17[/b]
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

[b]Acts 17:24[/b]
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:..'

and the genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3?

Or am I completely missing your point?

 2005/5/6 10:00









 How many babies are in hell becaused they cried?

you said

"But if one insists upon a definite time, then I'd say the first time a baby cries for nothing more than attention. There is "actual" sin, the selfish, "I'm the center of the universe" mentality that comes with our human nature."

Hmmmm? Did Jesus cry when He was a baby?
Is the cry of a baby sin?

 2005/5/6 12:43





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