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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [u]for[/u] the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [u]unto[/u] the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ASV)

Acts 2:38 and Peter said unto them, ‘Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, [u]to[/u] remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, (Youngs)

the underlined words are all version translations of 'eis'. It ought never to have been translated 'for'. It is a preposition of motion and is often used with a sense of destination or target. In other words water baptism is a step towards 'remission of sin' not the necessary or automatic cause.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/21 18:22Profile
modivarch
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Joined: 2005/4/21
Posts: 21


 Re:

There has been alot of talk about steps to or process of salvation/remission of sins (do you consider those 2 different things?)
1- believe 2-repent 3-baptized 4-recieve spirit

I think thats the order. I'm just curious why scripture never states this plainly? No where in the Bible does it include all 4 together, and if I remember correctly it never states more than 2 together. (ok it does say 3 in acts 2:38) Take John 3:16 for example. I think you all know that one. ;-) Jesus plainly states (infact twice if you add 3:15 KJV) that whosoever believes shall have eternal life. That is only step one. Does Jesus have it wrong? Did he forget to mention step 2,3 and 4? I'm curious what your thoughts/ideas are on this. Where along the line does everything need to be pulled together?

 2005/5/21 20:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

modivarch

Quote:
Jesus plainly states (infact twice if you add 3:15 KJV) that whosoever believes shall have eternal life. That is only step one. Does Jesus have it wrong? Did he forget to mention step 2,3 and 4?

The tenses of 'believing' make it clear that Jesus did not regard this as a 'step' at all, but as a continuing process.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 2:52Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: a closer look at the use of 'en' and 'eis'

I thought a quick look at this might help us with our prepositions...“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under (hupo) the cloud, and all passed through (dia) the sea; And were all baptized unto (eis) Moses in (en) the cloud and in (en) the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1Cor. 10:1-4, KJV)If we can get a feel for what is being said here it should stand us in good stead for “For by (en) one Spirit are we all baptized into (eis) one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into (eis) one Spirit.” (1Cor. 12:13, KJV)
The preposition 'eis' is the one often used with the phrase 'remission of sins' (Matt. 26:28; Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 5:31; 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14) I reading of these verses will make it clear that Christian water-baptism is never a 'trigger' for 'remission of sins' but is 'with a view to' as regards its inner purpose. These verses show that John's water-baptism was also 'for the remission of sins'. and the the shedding of Christ's blood was also 'for the remission of sins'. The enablement to receive 'remission of sins' is plainly stated in “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43, KJV)
So what is the significance of 1 Cor 13:1,2? We know from Romans 6:4,5 that 'the baptism into the death' effects a union with Christ. (another reason for doubting whether the baptism in view in Rom 6 is water-baptism. As someone quoted on these pages some time ago "if you immerse a sinner into water the only guaranteed consequence will be a wet sinner".) The 'method' (or instrumentality) by which Israel was 'baptised into Moses' was 'cloud and water'. Consequently the preposition 'en' is used. The observant will note that although the preposition 'en' is used the Israelites actually remained 'bone dry'. The sense would be carried with the phrase 'by means of'. I will try to show the Greek idiomatic use of 'en' with a simple illustration; Rev. 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill [u]with[/u] sword, and [u]with[/u] hunger, and [u]with[/u] death, and with the beasts of the earth. the three underlinings are the preposition 'en'. The 'instrument' of the 'killing' is said to be 'sword, hunger and death'. The Greek word 'en' is used in the phrase "shall be baptised 'in' the Holy Spirit not many days hence". The 'instrument' of that coming baptism would be the Holy Spirit, but the 'agent' of that Baptism would be Jesus Himself. He is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit. John was a Baptizer in Water only. This is why we should never use the phrase 'The Baptism of the Holy Spirit' it swtiches the focus of the whole doctrine.

Through the 'instrument' of cloud and water Israel was baptised 'into' (eis) Moses. Moses was the target or destination of that 'cloud and water baptism'. The counterpart to 1 Cor 10:1-4 is in 1Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Here the target/destination of the 'baptism' is 'one body', but the instrument of that 'baptism' is the 'one Spirit'. the attempts to drive a wedge between this reference to 'Baptism in the Spirit' and the other 6 in the gospels and the Acts is a mistake.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 3:41Profile
modivarch
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 Re:

Philo thanks for the reply, but your response had nothing to do with my question. There is no question as to whether belief needs to continue or not. My question is that Jesus ONLY says believe so when do the other "steps" come in to play? And if there are other steps why does Jesus not state them right then and there? He says that believing = eternal life. One has to be wrong. Either you don't need to be baptised to go to heaven or Jesus is leaving out vital information and you do.

 2005/5/22 7:30Profile
philologos
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 Re:

modivarch
the point I was making is that our current terminology is focusing on 'crises' ie steps. Believing, in the way that John uses it (and he never uses the noun 'faith') is an abiding characteristic not a 'step'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 9:31Profile
modivarch
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 Re:

I have no idea what you are trying to say about the question that I posed.

 2005/5/22 13:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

OK. one last try...

Quote:
There has been alot of talk about steps to or process of salvation/remission of sins (do you consider those 2 different things?)
1- believe 2-repent 3-baptized 4-recieve spirit

I think thats the order. I'm just curious why scripture never states this plainly? No where in the Bible does it include all 4 together, and if I remember correctly it never states more than 2 together. (ok it does say 3 in acts 2:38) Take John 3:16 for example. I think you all know that one. Jesus plainly states (infact twice if you add 3:15 KJV) that whosoever believes shall have eternal life. That is only step one. Does Jesus have it wrong? Did he forget to mention step 2,3 and 4? I'm curious what your thoughts/ideas are on this. Where along the line does everything need to be pulled together?

Several questions here.
Q1 not really a question.
Q2 does Jesus have it wrong? Of course not, but the way this question is framed makes me think you are referring to 'believes' as a single event. My point was that the tenses uses mean the 'believer'. It is a reference to a man's character not to a passing experience in which he believed.
Q3 did He forget steps 2,3 and 4. Of course not but then step 1 is not a step but a continuing process so step 2 would have to be step 1 at which point the question falls to pieces.
Q4. Where along the line does everything need to be pulled together?
If you mean 'how can we reduce this to a formula?' there can be no answer. Regeneration is not the result of implementing a formula.

If you are referring to the first paragraph ... is remission of sins and salvation the same thing? They are not synonyms. Remission of sins is an event, which may be repeated as necessary.
Salvation is a process which has past, present and future expressions.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/22 17:56Profile
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Joined: 2005/4/22
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Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Remission of sins

Quote:
If you are referring to the first paragraph ... is remission of sins and salvation the same thing? They are not synonyms. Remission of sins is an event, which may be repeated as necessary.
Salvation is a process which has past, present and future expressions.



Agreed here completely. So when, in your view, does remission of sins take place?

Maybe you could explain how you go about preaching the gospel and calling for response.

Also, to be clear, how would you answer someone who asked, "What must I do to be saved?"

Blessings, brother,

RT

 2005/5/24 17:35Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Agreed here completely. So when, in your view, does remission of sins take place?

At the moment of true faith.

Quote:
Also, to be clear, how would you answer someone who asked, "What must I do to be saved?"

I don't want to be difficult here but it depends entirely on who the 'I' is? The words "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house" were not a universal prescription but a word from God addressed to a man who had just witnessed the power of God in remarkable ways. It is followed by a statement that says Paul and Silas 'spoke to him, the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.' then, after Paul and Silas' wounds had been attended to, the man was baptised.

There are many implications to this passage that need careful thought. eg the jailer would have to know who Christ was before he could put his trust in Him. It is interesting that the injunction of Peter to the crowds at Jerusalem also followed on the heels of them 'being pricked to the heart'.

In the case of the Phlippian jailer, I cannot believe that the man continued under the weight of sin through his tending to wounds and was only released at the point he entered the water.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/25 3:27Profile





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