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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

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PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

InTheLight writes

Quote:
What's interesting is that every sinner in the world has been baptized, not in water, but in the death of Jesus Christ, where the whole world was given a chance at right relationship with God.


Whoa, steady here my brother... :-) While Christ has indeed been baptised into the death that passed to all men and, as a consequence, 'our old man was co-crucified with Christ' this is not the same as saying ''every sinner has been baptised into the death of Christ". He united with our ( joint) old man in His death and redemption is available for every sinner in the world. (I do not subscribe to the Calvinist view here) But if we follow the strick logic of your statement every sinner is 'already dead in Christ'; do we want to say this?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/19 13:38Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2718
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
(I do not subscribe to the Calvinist view here) But if we follow the strick logic of your statement every sinner is 'already dead in Christ'; do we want to say this?



Whoa there my pedantic brother... :-D

I'm surprised you struggle with this statement. I don't mean that everyone has gone into a baptismal pool, I mean that in the baptism-the death-of Christ, the whole world was given the chance of a new relationship. That relationship was provided for them, carried out for them, effected on their behalf. If men and women remain lost it is not because they were not redeemed but because they did not accept their redemption. That is the point of our call to the lost, to enter into that which God has provided and secured in and through Jesus Christ.

I think the following, from Watchman Nee, will help explain my meaning;

"The Cross was the means God used to bring to an end ‘the old things’ by setting aside altogether
our ‘old man’, and the resurrection was the means He employed to impart to us all that was necessary
for our life in that new world. “We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4).

The greatest negative in the universe is the Cross, for with it God wiped out everything that
was not of Himself: the greatest positive in the universe is the resurrection, for through it God
brought into being all He will have in the new sphere. So the resurrection stands at the threshold of the new creation. It is a blessed thing to see that the Cross ends all that belongs to the first regime and that the resurrection introduces all that pertains to the second. Everything that had its beginning before resurrection must be wiped out. Resurrection is God’s new starting-point.

We have now two worlds before us, the old and the new. In the old, Satan has absolute dominion.
You may be a good man in the old creation, but as long as you belong to the old you are under
sentence of death, because nothing of the old can go over to the new. The Cross is God’s declaration that all that is of the old creation must die. Nothing of the first Adam can pass beyond the Cross;it all ends there. The sooner we see that, the better, for it is by the Cross that God has made a way of escape for us from that old creation. God gathered up in the Person of His Son all that was of Adam and crucified Him; so in Him all that was of Adam was done away. Then God made, as it were, a proclamation throughout the universe saying: ‘Through the Cross I have set aside all that is not of Me; you who belong to the old creation are all included in that; you too have been crucified with Christ!’ None of us can escape that verdict."


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2005/6/19 15:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Whoa there my pedantic brother...


Whom? I? :-D

My pedantry foundered on the phrase 'every sinner'. This points to individual responsibility and individual destiny. The 'whole race' points to the corporate nature of mankind. My point is that Christ's putting to death of 'our old man' (a fascinatinng combination of plural pronoun and singular noun - who me, pedantic? ;-)) We share a single 'old man' there is not an old man for 'every sinner' but just one 'old man' for the whole race. Adam was the federal head of our race and all that he did 'man' did' and all that he experienced 'man' experienced. Christ is a new head of a new race and all that He experienced 'the new man' experienced. We are 'in' the first man as a result of Adam's offence, but we are only 'in' Christ as a result of personal (every/each man) being baptised into Him. the 'new man' this is a corporate entity in Christ, but only those who are 'in Christ' are part of that corporate man; not 'every sinner'.

Christ was united to 'our old man' by His Calvary baptism and, in Himself, brought it to a full end. It is only 'in Him' that the old man is co-crucified. and only those who are 'in Him' enjoy the consequences of the fact. But 'every sinners' enjoyment of this single act can only be as a result of that 'particular' sinner being baptised into Christ; once 'in Christ' they are no longer 'in Adam".

The redemption price, of course, was for the whole world and 'every sinner' too but that is redemption accomplished which waits its 'application' through personal faith in Christ.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/20 6:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The redemption price, of course, was for the whole world and 'every sinner' too but that is redemption accomplished which waits its 'application' through personal faith in Christ.



To which the Holy Spirit will then appropriate the finished work of the cross to the one exercising 'saving faith' individually. [i]As many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[/i] (Romans 6:3-4).

It seems here that "raised from the dead" and [i]regeneration[/i] are one and the same thing?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/20 7:59Profile









 Re:

Stever's response:

THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8).

2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

3. He regenerates (John 3:5,6).
(2Corinthians5:17). The human spirit, once dead in sin, is regenerated or made new by the power and working of the Holy Spirit. This is what it means to be born of the Spirit.

4. He glorifies Christ (John 16:14).

5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14, 15).

6. He is our leader - willing to lead us (Romans 8:14). "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the[mature] sons of God".

7. He sanctifies. The Holy Spirit is given that we might be holy. It is the Holy Spirit who, working together with the word of God in our minds, sanctifies us.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The Christian believer gets as far as step #7 above, without the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Step #8 below is what most of us are missing:

8. He empowers. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will bewitnesses to Me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8). The power we receivefrom Him is power to preach and demonstrate the gospel of the kingdom of God, not in word only, but in power. (1 Corinthians 4:20). Paul said that his message and preaching were not with the persuasive words of human wisdom, but with the demonstration of the SPIRIT and of POWER, that your faith should not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:4).
.................
There are many kinds of demonstrations of the power of the Spirit. They are sometimes unexpected. Certainly the Spirit wants to give us power to heal the sick and cast out demons. (Matthew 10:1; Mark 16:17,18; John 14:12).This power of the Spirit is often referred to as "the anointing". It is the anointing which enables us to do what Christ wants us to do assons of God. And that is, to destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8b).

Christ has told us to "Go" out into all the world and preach the Gospel. The original Greek uses the actual word GOING, not Go. What this really means is that while we are Going to work, Going to the park, Going to the market, we are to witness. We don't have to get on a plane and fly to Africa to be a witness. We don't have to be a certified Missionary of any Church. We are all called to preach the Gospel, wherever we go!

Jesus says in John 20-- "as the Father sent me, so send I you."

Christ is the model. How did He preach the Gospel? Did He pitch a tent and invite everyone in to witness to them? NO. Did he build a $10 Million dollar building, and invite them to come in to hear the Gospel there? NO. Did He go door to door and preach there, that way? NO.
Did He build a Cathedral right in the middle of Jerusalem and invite them in? NO.

JESUS DID IT THE WAY THAT HE HAS COMMISSIONED US TO DO IT- AS HE WAS GOING, WHEREVER HE WENT, THAT IS WHERE IT WAS HAPPENING. HE TOOK IT WITH HIM, HE LIVED IT. "HE TAUGHT AND MADE DISCIPLES" AND WE ARE TOLD TO DO IT THE SAME WAY.

JESUS SAID I WILL BUILD MY OWN CHURCH. WE ARE DOING THIS WORK FOR CHRIST BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WE RECEIVE WHEN WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Mark 16:15-20 really gives us the understanding
to see what transpires in the believer that is baptized into the Holy Spirit:

15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

It sounds very clear, but all of the newer Bible Versions (NIV, etc.) will say in the footnotes that "THE EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS AND SOME OTHER ANCIENT WITNESSES DO NOT HAVE MARK 16:9-21".

The "earliest manuscripts" that they (Westcott & Hort, et al) are referring to are manuscripts that we have today that were created in the 4th Century! What is not said here is that there are approximately 4,200 Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament. 618 of these have the Gospels in them(actually part of the Gospels- none have the entire Gospels in any one, just pieces of them in each)---Of these 618 that contain the Gospels, only 2 do not contain Mark 16:9-20. One of these TWO has a blank space left for those verses. Furthermore, we have many, many early Church letters from the Church Fathers (approximately 100 [early Church Fathers] of them, including Polycarp, etc) that Ministered to the body during the fist 100 years after Christ and every one of those Church Fathers in one of their many letters quote from Mark 16:9-20. In fact, we can take the letters from these same Church fathers and almost completely duplicate the New Testament.These early Church fathers were Discipled by John, Peter, & Paul.

The Baptism in the Holy Ghost is nothing more than the "Overflow" of the Holy Spirit that is already within the heart of the believer. All that we have to do is to ask the Father, and He will give us this Baptism---This Baptism that empowers believers (you and me) to be about Christ's business of witnessing to the lost.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/20 11:20





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