SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Hi again, RT,

Maybe I have not made myself clear but I am not arguing with scripture. I am interpreting it and, my interpretation agrees with the need for water baptism as part of the process of a person complying with the requirements of the Lord.

Quote:
It is very difficult, though, to find a scriptural reason, since baptism in the Holy Spirit, to justfiy any suggestion that a person is not 'saved' if they have not been baptised in water.

Wow! You sound like I used to. But personally I decided to stop arguing with Scripture:



Being baptised in water is
Quote:
a spiritual act


Amen.

I believe it cuts both ways, as the believer is already in a relationship with God. That's about as close as I can get. I hope we can agree in this last point.

 2005/5/14 2:37
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: dorcas

Yes we can agree that baptism in water is a spiritual act.

Quote:
I believe it cuts both ways, as the believer is already in a relationship with God.



So is baptism in water necessary "for the remission of sins?" (Acts 2:38)

What say you?

I'm not going to assume what you mean by "in a relationship with God." Do you mean in a saving relationship with God? Or do you mean that God is dealing with them and speaking to them?

RT

 2005/5/14 3:08Profile









 Re:

Hi RT,

I didn't expect you to post again! This is a pleasant surprise! :-)

In a previous post, you dismissed the experience of the disciples because it happened before Pentecost, yet, you have just quoted Peter's first sermon after Pentecost, as if Peter's experience [i]is[/i] relevant.

I may be leaving too much to your imagination by not saying even more about the different experiences described in scripture, so I'm not sure how to answer your question, mainly because I believe I have covered it already and I can't think of any information or reasoning to add - on the point of what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost - and, the experience of Christians who receive the Holy Spirit [i]before[/i] they have been baptised. Or for that matter, those who were baptised as infants and experience many years between that event and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Do you mean in a saving relationship with God? Or do you mean that God is dealing with them and speaking to them?


If they are responding to God's speakings, what difference are you making, please? It might be helpful again, to consider the process of coming to God experienced by those who had responded to John's baptism. For instance, was Cornelius in a relationship with God, after Pentecost, when he had been praying and a man in shining garments had appeared to him with a message?

 2005/5/14 21:20
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

ReceivedText,

I wouldn't mind going back and forth with some KJV stuff. I have found some stuff on my own that is pretty wild, but most people don't like to hear about it.

Anyway, yes (to other threads I have read) I know about Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, but Paul seemed to put emphasis on faith, seen here in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but preach the gospel..."

Bob Jones used to say, "Let's get 'em to heaven, anyway, if you can't get 'em in the tank."

The thief on the cross does say much, guys.

Here is another thought of mine (free of charge). Everyone knows John 3:16, what about Luke 3:16, "John answered onto them all, I indeed baptize you with water, but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." That pretty much says it all to me.

However, I am planning on being immersed (I was sprinkled as a baby) after much study on the subject (buried unto baptism, history of baptism, etc). I'm not doing it to obtain the Holy Ghost, but because I believe this is the way Jesus was baptized, and I want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. Oddly enough, it was Wesley's commentary on Romans 6:4 that pushed me over the edge, "We are buried with him - Alluding to the ancient manner of baptizing by immersion." However, if I see the dove descending upon me, I will let you know.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/5/15 0:36Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

letsgetbusy,

A hearty hello to you. What "KJV stuff" would you like to go "back and forth" with me about? Here are two links to two great books on the subject that you can read for free online on our site:

[url=http://www.believeonjesus.com/articles/whichversion/table.asp]"Which Version Is The Bible?" by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones[/url]

and

[url=http://www.believeonjesus.com/articles/crownedglory/crownedwithglory.asp]"Crowned With Glory" by Dr. Thomas Holland[/url]

If you have any particular issues you would like to bring up, feel free.

On baptism, I posted earlier in this thread the point that you don't find "repentance" in many salvation "promise" scriptures. Yet Lk. 13:3,5 tell us plainly that we can't get to heaven without repenting. Yet we all must admit that it is possible to "believe" and not "repent." Just because one point is not mentioned in one scripture doesn't mean it is not necessary.

Acts 2:38 doesn't mention "believe" or "faith" in Christ. Yet it is a salvation "promise" Scripture. I think we need to really seek to understand the doctrine of Christ.

So when IS a person "buried" with Christ? At the point of faith, repentance, or water baptism? Spirit baptism? I think we can agree that all are necessary. But at what time is the human spirit "born again?" That is the question.

I am really excited that you are being baptized by immersion (Biblical way). Any other way doesn't make as much sense out of Rom. 6:1ff. The early church seemed to believe that the "operation of God" (Col. 2) happened "in" the water. Our Protestant view has proven to be quite new it would seem.

Blessings,

RT

 2005/5/15 3:46Profile









 Re: The place of water baptism in Biblical salvation

Hi letsgetbusy

Quote:
I'm not doing it to obtain the Holy Ghost, but because I believe this is the way Jesus was baptized, and I want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus.


Amen. May the Lord bless you as you testify and make your stand for Him in public.

RT,

letsgetbusy has expressed something you know. But, in the questions you throw out, you are hazy about two things. One is that God deals with individuals in the order which He sees fit. This confuses anyone who wants everyone to go through the process of salvation in a fixed order and to have a testimony that is pretty much like the next guy's. It just doesn't happen like this. I've been trying to get you to acknowledge this.

The other thing is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit (being born again) is only possible when a person acknowledges the sentence of death on their life of sin, and accepts the death of Christ to be applied to their spirit, through the Holy Spirit. This is when we are baptised into His death, which is what Colossians 2 is talking about.

Now, nobody can get to the point of accepting Jesus death IN FACT for themselves, without the acknowledgement of their sin (that is, the validity of the sentence of death against them) and the acknowledgement of God's grace towards them through Christ Jesus, who died for us while we were sinners. It is ONLY through faith in His death and resurrection, that we can enter into it. Without repentance - a turning to face God and by default a turning away from sin - it is not possible to have made enough of an acknowledgement of sin, for God to bless a person with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, when it comes to water baptism for the believer, we approach it in the way Christ did (although He had not yet died on earth, because He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) in principle, because being the Word made Flesh he was perfect through and through, in the same way as we are, spiritually, after we have received the Holy Spirit ourselves. This is why I have such a big problem with carrying forward the idea that water baptism after having been born again, has something to do with the remission of sins IN FACT. To say so, suggests faith is not enough to save us. But, if faith does not lead to a change in our behaviour, the object believed in or the operation of faith (the operation of God in Col 2 and Eph 1 - to raise us from the dead as the Father raised the Son from the dead) then its impact on the life and future conduct of that life can be questioned. [i]Many[/i] people experience the remission of their sins in the presence of the Lord when they give Him their lives. I am not suggesting Peter was speaking figuratively, but, I hope you will concede that it is not possible to receive the Holy Spirit unless sins have already been taken away from that life in that person's spiritual reality.

Here is something from a Greek Interlinear, which may be helpful, looking at possible translations of 'for'.
New Testament Greek Definition:
1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep
AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58,
toward 29, against 26, misc 322; 1774
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
++++
"For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for
robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

Remember, I'm not disagreeing with believer's baptism, just the notion that one's sins have not been dealt with until one has been immersed.

 2005/5/15 11:21
lyndon
Member



Joined: 2003/12/8
Posts: 65
Manitoba, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Yet we all must admit that it is possible to "believe" and not "repent."



Sorry if I seem to be 'nitpicking' but I don't at all believe that it is possible to believe without repenting. A true belief will always lead to an action. I'm not an expert on greek but I'm told that the word implies an action accompaning it.
However I do believe that it is possible to repent without believing, but such repentence is not toward God.

I have to echo dorcas last comment:
Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with believer's baptism, just the notion that one's sins have not been dealt with until one has been immersed.


One question though, does this (immersion) nullify any other forms/types of water baptism eg. sprinkling, pouring.

 2005/5/15 15:12Profile
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Remember, I'm not disagreeing with believer's baptism, just the notion that one's sins have not been dealt with until one has been immersed.



Yes, I have understood that this is your position.

Quote:
Here is something from a Greek Interlinear, which may be helpful, looking at possible translations of 'for'.



You are trying to use an interlinear/lexicon as a dictionary. It doesn't work that way. You may not understand that among those "possible translations" for the word, only one will do. The lexicon is a tool used by Bible translators. It is not a Bible dictionary. A.T. Robertson tried to say that "eis" (the Greek word you are referring to) could refer to past tense. But it NEVER does. You need another Gr. word. The word "eis" ("for" in the KJV) takes on the forward direction "into" or "unto". Meaning you are going from the outside to the inside. Also note that the Granville-Sharp rule links repentance with "be baptized". So IF the meaning of "eis" was referring to the remission of sins happening prior to water baptism, it would necessarily say that the remission of sins happened "before" repentance. Let me ask you, can a person be saved withot repenting? Of course not. So you really can't go there.

You know I usually don't go to the Greek, but I did just for you. Let's stick to the KJV and not try to re-translate the Bible. They knew what they were doing.

Quote:
But, in the questions you throw out, you are hazy about two things. One is that God deals with individuals in the order which He sees fit. This confuses anyone who wants everyone to go through the process of salvation in a fixed order and to have a testimony that is pretty much like the next guy's. It just doesn't happen like this. I've been trying to get you to acknowledge this.



I really can't agree with you there. The Scriptures are clear that we all get in the same way. We all have to believe, we all have to repent, we all have to be baptized, we all have to receive the Spirit. God is not a respecter of persons. Everyone DOES have to go through the process of salvation in the same way, no matter what the order, meaning all aspects must be present. I will deal with this further down.

Quote:
This is why I have such a big problem with carrying forward the idea that water baptism after having been born again, has something to do with the remission of sins IN FACT. To say so, suggests faith is not enough to save us. But, if faith does not lead to a change in our behaviour, the object believed in or the operation of faith (the operation of God in Col 2 and Eph 1 - to raise us from the dead as the Father raised the Son from the dead) then its impact on the life and future conduct of that life can be questioned. Many people experience the remission of their sins in the presence of the Lord when they give Him their lives.



To use "experience" alone to dictate doctrine is weak at best. Dangerous at worst. You are assuming that someone is "born again" the minute they believe. We know that Paul was not born again the minute he believed on the road to Damascus. It wasn't until Ananias arrived three days later that he was commanded to rise and be baptized washing away his sins, calling on the name of the Lord. What was he doing with sins? Hadn't he seen the Lord, calling Him Lord? Yes. Hadn't he believed? Yes. Then why weren't his sins washed away until he was baptized?

The first act of faith in Christ is not "conduct of life", but baptism in water. Being baptized is the act of repentance and faith commanded by Christ. To say that Peter was not right when he said that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) is quite a charge. One I used to make, I might add. But I repent.

Quote:
I am not suggesting Peter was speaking figuratively, but, I hope you will concede that it is not possible to receive the Holy Spirit unless sins have already been taken away from that life in that person's spiritual reality.



I know you are speaking of the Cornelius experience here. Your premise that the Holy Spirit wouldn't fill a dirty vessel is a point well worth taking. But I'm not sure that receiving the Holy Spirit and the working of the regeneration of our spirit always happen simultaneously. As I said before, I don't know yet. It may be possible to have our spirit regenerated (born again) and not have received the indwelling Holy Spirit. I don't know yet. Still working on this. But, again, to discount CLEAR Scriptural teaching is not right for you or me to do.

Romans 6 says that we are buried with Christ through baptism, not faith alone. We have to take ALL of scripture. We can't discount any part of it because it doesn't fit our theology.

RT

 2005/5/18 20:30Profile









 Re: Place of baptism in Biblical salvation - re RT

RT,

Thank you for trying to deal with my post. I am heartened by your statement:

Quote:
Everyone DOES have to go through the process of salvation in the same way, no matter what the order, meaning all aspects must be present.



Have I said that Peter was wrong to mention baptism when and where he did and to whom? I don't think so. I've tried to get you to acknowledge simply that he had been baptised so long before he received the Holy Spirit, and was not baptised again after he received the Holy Spirit, that in the presence of the Holy Spirit, it is difficult to justify the claim that remission of sins does not take place until during the physical baptism in water.

When I was a child, I had been four years old when I was baptised by sprinkling, because my parents thought the better of taking their children to a pagan land without having had us baptised. They had believed in believer's baptism, in theory, until then - or, it may have been a requirement of the denomination for whom they were going.

Anyway, some years later, before I was twelve (which is a watershed age, spiritually, in scripture) I had occasion to pray for forgiveness for a specific sin. I had never done this before, but to my amazement I was soon overcome by the knowledge that I was forgiven. All my guilt had disappeared and it was as if I had not committed that sin. Was I mistaken?

I will leave you with Oswald Chambers's interesting baptism-free description of justification by faith.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH (My Utmost for His Highest - October 28th)

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - "It is finished."

 2005/5/19 16:57
ReceivedText
Member



Joined: 2005/4/22
Posts: 257
Seattle, Washington, USA

 Re: Acts 2:38

So what is your interpretation of Acts 2:38. I'd like to see you take this text and tell me what you think it means.

After that, let's move to John 3:5

RT

 2005/5/20 18:30Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy