SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What place does baptism have in Biblical salvation?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 Next Page )
PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [i]your[/i] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
(Luke 11:13, KJVS)


Hi Robert
The power of your argument, of course, lies in the personal pronoun 'your' which is not in the original. A close look at a good KJV will show the word in italics. Young's Literal Translation corrects this. “If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!’”
(Luke 11:13, YNG) This reference is not a 'your heavenly Father' but to 'a heavenly Father'. It is contrasting an earthly father with a heavenly one. You may recall that this discourse seems to have to have been delivered to the 12 disciples which included 'Judas Iscariot'. Do you want to make Judas a 'child of his heavenly Father'?

In fact, part of the glory of this contrast is that the heavenly Father will give to 'anyone'; all they have to do is 'ask'.

The 'heavenly Father' title is used throughout the Sermon on the Mount and was particularly relevant for the people that God called 'my first born son'. See also “Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”
(Mal. 2:10, KJVS)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/15 9:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Good answer. The question that keeps looming is at what point does one become a child of God? I think that [i]inthelight[/i] has consistently been articulating the evangelical view that the Holy Spirit comes when saving faith is exercised. The evidence for this being the fruit of the Spirit and the naming of Christ, etc..

[i]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.[/i] (I Corinthians 12:3)

It seems evident that there is a spirit (breath) of some sort behind all words. Either the spirit of man, an evil spirit, or the Spirit of God. What are we to make of one that names the name of Christ and seems to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit, but does not believe in a 'Spirit baptism"?

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/15 9:51Profile









 Re:

THE PROMISE IS FOR YOU
In Acts 2:39 Peter says "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself."

We may be far off from the day of Pentecost but the promise is for us if God has called us to Himself. What is "the promise"? It is the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24:49). See also Acts 1:4.
This is the promise recorded in Joel 2:28-32 and Acts 2:17-21.
"And it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:17).
Before "the last days" the Holy Spirit was only poured out upon specially chosen servants of God, especially prophets, priests and kings. But now, the Bible teaches us, all Christians are royal priests (1 Peter 2:9). The Holy Spirit can be poured out on all mankind (Acts 2:17), so this certainly includes you. The applicable time period for the promise, the last days, is the time between Christ's ascension and second coming. The last days aren't over yet as Acts 2:19,20 have not yet been fulfilled. Therefore the promise is still fully applicable to all believers today.

How to Receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
We now arrive to the very important question - how to receive the promise of the Father; how to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. The word of God gives us the answers here.

Remember, if you are a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit already (Romans 8:9). The Word "receive" is used in the sense of making a guest welcome. The Holy Spirit is holy, and also a gentleman. He will not barge in if you don't want Him to. His power is freely available to those who will trust and obey (Acts 5:32).
It is not essential to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit, but it is HELPFUL provided the believer who lays hands on you is SPIRIT-FILLED and of GOOD CHARACTER. There is a SPIRITUAL IMPARTATION that comes with the laying on of hands. We see the laying on of hands mentioned in connection with receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:17, Acts 9:12 and Acts 19:6.
Its important to realize that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith, and not merely by the laying on of hands. This is what needs to happen for you to be mightily filled with the Holy Spirit.

REPENTANCE (necessary for salvation. See Acts 17:30; Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38) --------------
Examine yourself. Be honest with yourself and God. God demands thorough repentance from ALL KNOWN SIN. Decide to live for God wholeheartedly. Confess and forsake your sins, trusting Jesus for forgiveness (Prov 28:13; 1 John 1:9). If you have unforgiveness in your heart towards anyone, you must forgive that person (Mark 11:25)

RENOUNCE EVIL POWER
If you have ever dabbled in false religions or ANY form of the occult (including astrolgy) you must renounce that evil power now in the name of Jesus. It is from Satan and his demons.
If you are in doubt about some practice or habit then renounce that too (Romans 14:23). God's power and demon power don't mix well!

THIRST AFTER GOD
Jesus explains in John 7:37,38 "If any man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water'".
The next verse tells us that this refers to the Holy Spirit.
We must have a desire to experience more in God in order to be filled with the Spirit. The more intense our desire is, the more powerfully we will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. We should never give up seeking God. Faith is born out of desire.

ASK IN FAITH
Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him" (Luke 11:13).
"Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be full" (John 16:24)
We can have faith because we know from God's word the promises such as these. See also Acts 2:17,38-39. It is obviously God's will to keep his promises.

DRINK
"We have all been made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13). In Hebrew and Greek the word for spirit is the same as the word for breath. When coming to God to be baptised in the Spirit, it is sometimes helpful after prayer to take a few deep breaths in faith, and as it were, to breath in the Holy Spirit. We should come with a thirsty heart to Jesus and drink. (John 7:37- 39).

RECEIVE
We receive the Holy Spirit as a gift, not on the basis of works, but by "hearing with faith" (Galatians 3:5). We don't receive by doing outward things, we must simply believe that we receive.
Mark 11:24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they shall be granted you."

YIELD TO GOD
As the expression of our faith in God's word, we yield control of our tongue to God. This yielding is an ACTIVE thing - WE do the speaking, and the Holy Sprit gives the language.
Paul says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful" (1 Corinthians 14:14).
Acts 2:4 says "And they ... began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance (Margin reads "ability to speak out").
You must begin speaking, trusting God to give the language. Do not worry about whether you understand the sounds you make - you will make the sounds according to the language that the Holy Spirit gives you.
Keep speaking in tongues, allowing the Holy Sprit to flood your spirit, soul and body, drenching you in his presence. Keep receiving until you are absolutely full of the Holy Spirit. Begin to praise God in your new language from God, thanking him for what he has done

[b]THE PROMISE IS FOR YOU [/b]

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 10:10
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Ron
Acts 8 is a struggle which ever way we look at it. The record seems to go out of its way to equate Simon with the rest of the 'believers' in Samaria. 'they believed' and 'Simon himself believed also'. (Acts 8:12,13) This puts no distinction between his 'faith' and 'theirs'. It goes on to tell us that he was similarly 'baptised'. So far we are being led to suppose that his experience and theirs were the same. It continues in stating that he 'continued with Philip'. This word 'continue' is the one sometimes translated 'continue steadfastly'. There seems to be no doubt as to the genuineness of his faith, his baptism or his zeal.

And yet Peter's description of him is devastating.
1. he was 'perishing' 8:20
2. his heart was not right in the sight of God 8:21
3. he was in the 'gall of bitterness' 8:23
4. and the 'controlling bonds of iniquity' 8:23
There is another intriguing point. Peter refers to 'the gift of God' 'tEn dOrean tou theou' This exact phrase is only used in one other place in the Bible; “Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest [u]the gift of God[/u], and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.” (John 4:10, KJVS) - 'tEn dOrean tou theou'. This is a fascinating link as it also took place in Samaria.

What do we think Christ was referring to when He spoke of 'the gift of God' in John 4:10? The answer must surely be 'the living water'. John uses this phrase 3 times in his record“Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”
(John 4:10-11; 7:38, KJVS)
But of the second time the record add “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
(John 7:38-39, KJVS) In other words when this promise was made it was 'postdated'. It would not be payable until Jesus was 'glorified'.

So the trail goes on... when was He glorified? His glorification was more a process than one specific event. It included the cross but culminated in being 'received up in glory' (1 Tim 3:16) Not 'into' glory as in the KJV but 'in' glory. This was his 'glorious ascension'. His arrival in the throne was what precipitated the coming of the Spirit. “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
(Acts 2:33, KJVS) This is seen in the symbolism of the Revelation where the 'throne of God and of the Lamb' becomes the source of 'living water' “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
(Acts 2:33, KJVS) It seems that Christ's promise to the woman of Samaria was not fulfilled until they received 'the gift of God' in the giving of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/15 10:27Profile









 Re:

Ron said:
"It seems that Christ's promise to the woman of Samaria was not fulfilled until they received 'the gift of God' in the giving of the Holy Spirit."

Stever's response:
It seems to me that she is saved by the same "belief" that Saved Abraham. Christ saw her heart, and HE knew she "believed on/in HIM".

Christ is the one who knows exactly who is saved. He sees directly into the heart. We don't see into the heart of others, however we know the condition of our own heart. It is a "new heart", and has changed from a heart of stone. Our thoughts are changed, and people that knew us before wonder what has happened to us. CHRIST is what has happened to us, HE has given us the down payment of our someday total redemption--the downpayment---the Holy Spirit that now resides in our heart.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 13:55









 Re:

RobertW said:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (I Corinthians 12:3)

It seems evident that there is a spirit (breath) of some sort behind all words. Either the spirit of man, an evil spirit, or the Spirit of God. What are we to make of one that names the name of Christ and seems to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit, but does not believe in a 'Spirit baptism"?

Stever's response: What you have pointed out above was a description of me until God put it on my heart to have a deeper walk with HIM. When I finally met a man that was "Spirit Filled", that had been baptised into the Holy Spirit- I wanted that Spirit Baptism as well. I actually knew this guy when I was in High School, and now, in my 50's I meet him again. What a difference! What a walk he has with the Lord, the same kind of walk that I wanted, that I had been praying for.

Now, today, I have that "Spirit Filled" walk that results from the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The Good News, is---You can have it to, if you want it.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 14:33
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response: What you have pointed out above was a description of me until God put it on my heart to have a deeper walk with HIM. When I finally met a man that was "Spirit Filled", that had been baptised into the Holy Spirit- I wanted that Spirit Baptism as well. I actually knew this guy when I was in High School, and now, in my 50's I meet him again. What a difference! What a walk he has with the Lord, the same kind of walk that I wanted, that I had been praying for.



Hi stever,

So do you consider yourself to have been 'saved' before your 'baptism in the Holy Spirit"? BTW I suppose I would fall into the classical pentecostal camp.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/15 14:41Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Stever's response:
It seems to me that she is saved by the same "belief" that Saved Abraham. Christ saw her heart, and HE knew she "believed on/in HIM".


This may not be quite so plain as it appears. “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many [u]believed[/u] in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not [u]commit[/u] himself unto them, because he knew all men,”
(John 2:23-24, KJVS)The underlined words are the same Greek word. Here some believed in ("eis" towards/into) Him but He did not reciprocate their faith knowing what was in man. This is the same expression used in this Samaritan passage “And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.”
(John 4:39, KJVS) this is the same construction; they believed on ("eis" towards/into) Him. I am not suggesting that the Samaritan 'believing' was inadequate but just that the word 'believe' is often a process in John's gospel. This may be why he never uses the noun 'faith' but persists in the verb 'believe'.

John's earlier use of 'believe' too is interesting; “He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
(John 1:11-12, KJVS) This is captured much better in more modern versions; “He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
(John 1:11-12, ASV)

“to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,”
(John 1:11-12, YNG) Young brings out the construction of the definite article and present participle which signifies - the believing ones. This is not an 'act' of 'faith' but an abiding characteristic of believing. John is referring to 'believers' and says to these 'the believing ones' He (that is 'Christ') gave 'the right to become'. This is not 'dunamis' which would be inherent power but 'exousia' which means 'authority'. These verses do NOT say that anyone who 'received' Christ became 'sons' of God, it says that those who 'received' Him, those believing ones, He gave 'the right to become' the children of God. This verse speaks of people who received 'the right' - another postdated cheque - to become the children of God by regeneration.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/6/15 14:44Profile









 Re:

by philologos on 2005/6/15 10:27:11

"Acts 8 is a struggle which ever way we look at it. The record seems to go out of its way to equate Simon with the rest of the 'believers' in Samaria. 'they believed' and 'Simon himself believed also'. (Acts 8:12,13) This puts no distinction between his 'faith' and 'theirs'. It goes on to tell us that he was similarly 'baptised'. So far we are being led to suppose that his experience and theirs were the same. It continues in stating that he 'continued with Philip'. This word 'continue' is the one sometimes translated 'continue steadfastly'. There seems to be no doubt as to the genuineness of his faith, his baptism or his zeal."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


The parable of the sower provides me with a picture of all those that hear the Gospel, the Good News.


Matthew 13:18-23:
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The question is---- do you think that because a person hears the Gospel for the first time and does not understand it and does not receive it, that he will never understand it & never receive it?

The answer is no. I was that person, and maybe you were to, who heard the Gospel many times, over and over and seemingly rejected it each time--- until it was finally quickened to me/us and we believed at that moment. God is the one who knows exactly when that event happens. We become aware of it as well- maybe not right away, but over time. Our hearts are changed, our "wants" are changed, our "life" is changed.

The Holy Spirit is the one that was drawing us to HIM, The Holy Spirit is the one that was doing all of the work, we were just led by HIM (the Holy Spirit) into places where others would witness to us.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit empowers believers to witness to others without fear. The Holy Spirit is the one that sends the lost across our paths and leads us to witness to them.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/15 15:09
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

The problem I am having in all this is wondering how this plays out in terms of the multitudes of people over the centuries who may not fit this model. What about them?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/6/15 16:21Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy