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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Church Leaders are to be Holy And Separate

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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
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Greg has asked me in the past to refrain from promoting sites until he could verify their ministry. I was not offended and understood why he was doing it.
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This is a good principle to follow regardless where we post what. It is so easy to post a link to a well thought out article to find some on that site/blog that raises more questions and confusion. The older I get the more aware I am becoming of this principle because the most dreadful thing I can imagine doing is giving approval to something that would end up misleading anyone.

LMH - are you aware the link Greg posted was one to an article he has written himself but was posted in a different venue?

God bless

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2015/6/6 22:29Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

in the Word we are all told to be Holy as He is holy. We are all called to be servants to one another and live holy lives unto the Lord.

 2015/6/7 0:55Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

Sis the difference is that leader must be all that .other wise he must not led ,we can have time to grow in holiness and grow from being babes in Christ who Paul said still acted carnal at time ,but leaders are to be mature and have victory over things that others may still struggle with like idol words and grumbling to name just two a leader must not expect or force babes in Christ to be mature but nurture them with the paience of Christ. And feed them slowly and tenderly

 2015/6/7 5:24Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

It is a good word. I have done a similar study on all commands that Paul gives to Timothy in those 2 letters. One can easily list them as essential qualities for a future Church leader. Yes they are applicable to all as well, but particularly to an young upcoming leader.

Regarding sharing a link, I feel when we login into SermonIndex we all agree to submit under the authority of the moderators. It is similar to entering a neighbors house. By default you are accepting to submit to the rules of your neighbor. If he wants you to wash your feet before entering the house then better do it. We cannot question the neighbor why he is not washing his feet but expecting others to wash? If we are unwilling to ask such questions to our worldly neighbors then how much more are we to keep silent in spiritual house and matters?
For example your neighbor may ask you to remove your shoes when you enter his house, but he himself might be wearing a sandal that he wears only inside his house, hence he knows it is clean. We cannot question him on this, can we? How stupid we will be if we question our neighbor saying, "how can you ask me to remove my shoes when you are wearing a sandal in your house?"; We all know what answer to expect.

Similar to a house that belongs to a neighbor, this ministry of Sermonindex is from the burden of a brother who also wants to be faithful to the Lord. It is his burden, we may assist him in all the ways we can, but never question him on how he wants to fulfill his burden. Because on the judgment day he will be answerable for what he did with SI.


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Sreeram

 2015/6/7 12:54Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re:

Saints,

I have featured my writings at times on SermonIndex in the past and have not done so overly in the recent, but am considering to feature some of the new blog I have started. I have never seen this as a problem or especially a sin because God has caused me to shepherd this ministry under his grace.

I do believe this is a submission to authority issue that some have a problem with people being "leaders" or shepherds of this website that believers need to respect and submit to.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/6/7 14:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Sree said: It is similar to entering a neighbors house. By default you are accepting to submit to the rules of your neighbor.



Two things to this. First, I'm reminded of Mark 7:1-13 and Matt. 15:1-9. Second, sure, they might own the house but who owns them? Similar to Matthew 17:24-27 and Matt. 10:28.

Also, when it comes to 'authority', I'm extremely leery when people in authority say 'you must submit', as that's the gentile's way and not Christ's nor the Kingdom of Christ. Luke 22:25-27

When it comes to Greg/SI, I'm a bit leery of some john doe creating a website of other ministers and that by proxy somehow accredits the john doe. I'm not attacking CRF nor their choice to give credentials to Greg.

What I am doing is standing up against hypocrisy. Simple as that. If I enter someone's house and they tell people to wash others feet and they don't do it themselves, I'm a bit leery of that and being in God's Kingdom, we have a right to speak up to that, which is what I *was* doing. Hulsey cleared some of this up but I also asked for added clarity in some form to communicate this to others (i.e. editing the community guidelines).

In clarity, SI.net and Greg aren't one. If you think that is true, maybe the definition is different from the actual about us page. Located here: https://www.sermonindex.net/about.php

Greg isn't Paul Washer nor David Wilkerson. SI, at least according to the website, was supposed to be: "Thus the main thrust of the speakers and articles on the website encourage us towards a reviving of these missing elements of Christianity."

If Greg wants to piggy back off of revivalists of our day, he is allowed to do what he wants with his website. But for the sake of integrity, rethink the words on 'about us' and throughout the entire site that talk about what SI is because SI doesn't look like 'ministry of Greg Gordon' because the words say 'the Body of Christ' run it. Ummm, that is a bit misleading.

The push on SI is to listen to Puritan revivalists. If the push becomes Greg Gordon's messages, well, for integrity sake, change the definition of what SI is.

 2015/6/7 15:38









 Re:

A few of my thoughts plus some comments i found on the net:

“Obey your leaders and submit to them,” is a difficult text to speak on because of our culture ... Our culture is anti-authoritarian and postmodern, and both ideas militate against obedience or submission.
Anglican preacher, John Stott, wrote (Between Two Worlds [Eerdmans, 1982], p. 51), “Seldom if ever in its long history has the world witnessed such a self-conscious revolt against authority.”

" obedience implies going along with direction or commands, whereas submission involves an attitude. You can obey outwardly while seething with anger on the inside, but you aren’t submitting. Submission implies a sweet spirit of cooperation that stems from trust. You trust that the leaders have your best interests at heart, and so you go along with them. "

LMH if you can have it your way then you are the authority and you expect that Greg and his team should submit to you.
I think you need to seriously pray and seek God and may be repent for having such an attitude.

Hebrews 13v16 "And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. 18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things "

Blessings

 2015/6/7 17:08
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:
"What I am doing is standing up against hypocrisy. Simple as that. If I enter someone's house and they tell people to wash others feet and they don't do it themselves, I'm a bit leery of that and being in God's Kingdom, we have a right to speak up to that, which is what I *was* doing. Hulsey cleared some of this up but I also asked for added clarity in some form to communicate this to others (i.e. editing the community guidelines)."



It is not hypocrisy. As a house owner they have all rights to decide whether their feet has to be washed or not. In other words if the house owner knows that he has not gone out at all then he will not find the need to wash his feet. He may intern ask those who enter the house to wash because he does not know where all they have gone before entering his house. If we want to enter his house we have to wash our feet whether we know it is clean or not. In real world scenario no man with right mind will question this rule.

Same way Greg may suspect the external links posted by others in SI. But he might permit certain links that he knows for sure is correct. He has all rights to do so. There is no hypocrisy here.

Quote:

SI doesn't look like 'ministry of Greg Gordon' because the words say 'the Body of Christ' run it. Ummm, that is a bit misleading.



I am not here to defend SI here. I am very happy that Greg was able to defend with certain strong words in this thread. I cannot speak for how SI is termed or defined.

I can speak on submission in general and also in SI. I believe the following quote from the post of "markuskiwi" sums up LMH's idea of Body of Christ.
Quote:

“Obey your leaders and submit to them,” is a difficult text to speak on because of our culture ... Our culture is anti-authoritarian and postmodern, and both ideas militate against obedience or submission.



Yes based on today's culture, people think in Body of Christ there should be democracy. Democracy though we all enjoy it today in many nations, it was not God's design at all. God never let Israel choose their King. He always appointed them. So this idea of Democracy is creeping into the understanding of Body Of Christ. In Body of Christ, all parts are equally important in God's eyes. But their roles and responsibilities are different. Clearly there are certain parts which are to submit and work with other parts.
The point is, Body Of Christ does not mean all the individual parts in that Body rule themselves. It is because we have such a wrong understanding of Body Of Christ influenced by the world around us, it is difficult to submit.

All these terms of democracy like 'fight for your rights', 'raise up your voice against authority' etc, are all demonic. If you do not like the authority of a place, then just leave that place. If it is a Church were you see the Elder or Pastor is not doing the right thing and Church is going in wrong way, then just leave the Church. Do not try to raise your voice. It is not democracy in Church.


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Sreeram

 2015/6/8 2:00Profile









 Re:

I am afraid that what is being said here is not scriptural.

Comparing SI to a neighbours house is not helpful, as the neighbour is acting in the way of the world: I have the authority here, do as I say. This is MY house and what I say goes. If you don't like it then get out.

The Bible however, says that those who lead are the ones who are to serve and are to lead by example and it is not serving if all you do is lay down a set of rules, ever increasingly restrictive rules to boot. The proof of this in action is in a dwindling membership and disgruntled members who are just shouted down.

In heavily moderated discussion forums, the membership just fades away. People feel too controlled and just leave. On the contrary I have seen forums where the moderation is very light indeed and they thrive, one of which is Christian Chat which I think is a very good example. People are willing to contribute because they feel safe and valued, and the discussions are lively and instructive.

You cannot compare a discussion forum with anything else including a church membership and it's no good trying to blame the people. If the majority vote with their feet than it would be foolish to carry on insisting that one is in the right.

If someone gets something into their mind, they will not listen to the majority voice and there will always be those who gain their worth by backing up anyone with power, and unfortunately without discrimination.



 2015/6/8 3:44
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

I am afraid that what is being said here is not scriptural.

Comparing SI to a neighbours house is not helpful, as the neighbour is acting in the way of the world: I have the authority here, do as I say. This is MY house and what I say goes. If you don't like it then get out.



Sister no comparison or illustration can be 100% exact, including the illustration that Jesus gave. We should only look into the point about the illustration that the one who uses it is trying to express. The point here is we should not question the owner of the house. Just like the owner of the house is responsible for the well being of the members of his house, same way a forum owner is responsible for the well being of those who visit.

I agree with you that a Leader in Church should have an attitude to serve, they should be a servant of all. But they should also have the authority to call a disciple Satan, when he is trying to drive in his direction. Jesus called Peter Satan when he was trying to Stop Jesus from the cross and turning him in another direction. He was not politely requesting anything to Peter. What if Peter got offended and left? He would have lost his chance to be in God's kingdom.

It is very similar situation in any forum or Church, there will always be immature believers who will try to take the drivers seat and give direction. We need strong leaders to rebuke them like how Jesus did.

Quote:

In heavily moderated discussion forums, the membership just fades away. People feel too controlled and just leave. On the contrary I have seen forums where the moderation is very light indeed and they thrive, one of which is Christian Chat which I think is a very good example. People are willing to contribute because they feel safe and valued, and the discussions are lively and instructive.



Success of a forum is not based on quantity of people in it but the quality of people in it. I would prefer being part of a Forum where only few believers participate but has very high quality posts, rather than 1000s of believers participating and posting random stuff and theologies of man.

Sadly the focus for quantity rather than quality is spreading in Church as well. The moment we start loosening our standard for the sake of quantity we are no longer pleasing God. Apostle Paul said, 'If I try to please men then I cannot be a servant of God'.


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Sreeram

 2015/6/8 5:48Profile





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