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Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14.
Some of the Proverbs have a significant spiritual application. Some of the Proverbs have a significant secular application. And many of the Proverbs contain both. However, the Proverb you just quoted for my benefit should probably be placed in the “secular application” only box.
You see, the problem with using this verse in the context of this discussion we are having is that one has to then ask – Ok, but who’s counsel do I seek and trust?
Let’s imagine for a moment that I came to Sermon Index as a Mormon who was seeking advice. What if I told everyone here that I began reading the Bible for myself and that I discovered some things that seemed to suggest that the Mormon “church” was not truly the way to life. I then reveal that I am considering leaving the Mormon “church” and its doctrines behind.
You would possible find this news quite exciting. And you would encourage me to continue on in my Biblical pursuit of truth.
But let’s then imagine that I returned the next day only to tell you that I changed my mind. And as you pursue the reasoning for my quick change of heart, I tell you that the Mormon elders showed me Proverbs 11:14. And because of that revelation, I decided that it was best to not go it alone but to instead discuss my concerns with my Mormon elders. And as I discussed things with them, I realized that I was being stubborn, arrogant, and foolish to think that I had all the answers. And as a result, I have decided to remain in the Mormon “church”.
If this were a real scenario, you would cry foul. And you would insist that the Mormon elders were only using that passage for their own agenda. You would insist that the verse was being misused and you would in fact encourage me to reject their counsel.
You see, that is the great problem of trying to give this passage a spiritual application. By doing so, all religious groups who use the Bible can use this verse as a means to discourage it adherents from forsaking doctrines that a large number of people hold as true.
When I have a question about the business I am in, I will seek out advice from others who are in the same business and will pay attention to the answers I am given. If I have a question about taxes, I will seek out an accountant. I am not at all opposed to receiving counsel on worldly and temporary matters. But on eternal things, I will entrust the well being of my soul to the one who called me and saved me. He is quite capable of revealing truth and error.
Tim, If you would have watched my video, you would see (or I at least hope you would) that we have been in a season of darkness and deception for the past 1900 years. And in order to protect God’s people from deception during this time, John told his people that they didn’t need any man to teach them (2nd John 2:18-27). John instead told them that they could entrust themselves to the care of the one who was in them.
Considering this dark season of time we are now in, why would any wise person allow others to influence what they hold as truth?
| 2015/5/19 12:17|
| Re: |
I think the greatest objection that most are making is in regards to my firm belief that the institution that we see on this earth that calls itself the church is a fraud that has no legitimate ties to the church that was born on Pentecost.
Remember, this thread began when I posted a link to a video that I recently made. I know that the video is long, and I know that it must at first seem very dull. But I encourage you to watch the video all the way through (or listen to the audio version) then come back and carefully read the thread through again. Then things might make a little bit more sense.
In regards to your concern about the tone of this thread, I have had no issues with it. I think that most of those who have posted a reply have done so out of concern for me. Even though I consider their concern misplaced, I do still feel that it is out of concern that they have spoken.
Hope this helps some.
| 2015/5/19 13:00|
| Re: |
I don't need to watch the whole video. I understand your argument. I disagree with it. I disagree that we are in a "season of darkness and deception for the past 1900 years", that the entire church is essentially a false entity preaching a false gospel. You have not made the case, either.
Your reasoning, if I can boil this down for everyone's consumption, is a syllogism arguing:
A. The true church preaches the true gospel.
B. The true gospel is not being preached.
C. Therefore, the church is not the true church.
You have yet to prove that the gospel that is preached is not the true gospel.
Now, everyone here, I believe, would agree that false gospels abound and false teachers abound. But, one has to take the specific false gospels and false teachers and cull them out, so to speak; the burden lies there. It is not the burden of the true church to prove itself to any believer by showing how it has eliminated infiltration by false teachers and false gospels. And, in any event, a failure of the ability in real time to do so does not constitute a nullity of the true church.
Let me start on that last point.
Galatia was a true church, as was Ephesus and Corinth. Paul addressed them as such, although each was infected at one time or another by false gospels from false teachers. The church has never been immune to, impenetrable by or impervious to false teaching. Yet, it remains the church.
Jesus addressed the church at Ephesus in Revelation. It was a true church. It had rejected false teaching (Nicolaitans), but had left its first love. It was this abandonment of its true love for Him that provoked Jesus to warn that He would remove its candlestick and its witness unless it repented. Jesus commended their intolerance of false teaching, but never threatened to remove their witness as a church over having not eradicated it at first sight.
Compare Pergamum. That church specifically tolerated Nicolaitans, and also taught that eating food sacrificed to idols was permissible and that sexual immorality was not immoral; yet it was still a true church, called such by Jesus. It was commanded to repent, or to be judged by His active opposition against the false teachers. It was never threatened with being nullified as a church, unlike Ephesus.
Both were subject to judgment, rightly so.
This brings me to another point. It seems to me that your line of thinking -- that what you consider a false gospel makes the church itself false for 1900 years now, and I do not agree with your premise on a globally, epochal false gospel and you have not proved it -- has essentially placed Jesus in an armchair instead of a throne.
Jesus said that "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Right now, by your logic, He started with 3,120 on the day of Pentecost and has built it all the way up to 1 as of 5/19/2015. For His sake, I hope you're in good health.
I don't think you realize the implications of your theory. You impugn the character of Jesus, Jason. Jesus, who for less than a century endured serious error and idolatry in His churches in Asia before He wrote to them through His apostle, John, has for 20 times as long now sat in a celestial repose and allowed all of us heathen to mock God openly by preaching the "gospel" that isn't really, calling ourselves by His name and His "church" that isn't really, going into all the world with this "ungospel" by the power of the Holy Spirit that isn't really, baptizing 50 or however many generations in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- to what end? A sham, if you're right. And, not a patient God but a dope, if you're right.
I think you should have to defend that. Here.
| 2015/5/19 14:32||Profile|
Whittier CA USA
| Re: |
What is this clear 'error' that Jason is in?
He is condemning to hell all so-called “institutional” and/or denominational churches and Christians who are part of those churches. He says that unless you repent (based on his understanding of repentance) and come out of your “institutional” church you will be condemned. This type of sentiment is not something new, it has been and is alive and well among many who hate all organized churches for whatever reason. Again, this is typical of those who are part of cults; they separate themselves from and condemn all churches. They think they have some special revelation that everyone else doesn’t have (aka elitism). It’s a form of pride that brings a certain type of delusion and spiritual self-destruction.
I do not separate myself in body, l meet with others even though they disagree with me and often they separate themselves from me when they discover what l believe or endeavour to silence me which l think is out of Gods will for them to do so.
I have found believers who have read and believed the gospel that Jason is preaching but are still seeking to enter in themselves. I will happily fellowship with them or with those who are still under the cloud of deception as l love them and long for them to be out of bondage.
Then there are those who oppose the truth and want to get rid of me. I love them too and cannot judge them as l was once lost too. I have fellowship with those following Celtic Theology and am discovering the true gospel preached during those early years too.
But no, l have not found one man preaching this gospel in any church group. I don't recall reading that Jason has withdrawn himself from fellowshipping with others. I will not do that. I tried to join the Lydia group recently and was open about my beliefs but they rejected me despite saying they are transdenominational. God hates men who cause divisions which is what they did.
I consider men saved if they have victory over sin.
If you believe and teach that one must be completely sinless to be saved (which I believe you do), is it any wonder that other believers do not want to fellowship with you? I mean, how can I fellowship with someone who thinks I’m not saved because I’m not completely sinless? It is a serious difference of views. It’s not some petty difference over a non-essential issue.
| 2015/5/19 17:40||Profile|
| Re: |
Dolfan, Oracio, and Jason thank you for clearing up my understanding.
I honestly wouldn't concern myself with this kind of debate, partly because of Dolfan's latest response, it (this discussion) lacks substance/specifics.
Jason is being a counter-weight to something. I have no other way to look at this. Just because Jason may teach or say something it doesn't change our mutual internal truth, that we serve Jesus Christ.
He's at a place of passion, weren't we all?
Let's not mistake his zeal with understanding. His zeal could easily land him in a more constructive view of theology of the gospel.
So, let's pray for the passionate brother and not focus on what can easily divide us.
| 2015/5/19 19:01|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
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We do not endorse the teaching on SermonIndex that the institutional churches (all of them) are apostate for the last 1900 years. We will not allow allow SermonIndex as a platform for those to expose those views. As has been alluded to, to tell people that they are "believing the lie" (2 Thessalonians 2:11) for staying in *any* Church is false teaching and not handling the word of God rightly. We do pray for Jason to see this as a very dangerous opinion and that as he alluded to that he has found no one else in 10 years who agreed with his doctrine and gospel he believes. That is a dangerous place to be. May we all seek fellowship with each other and learn from others who have gone before us in the Church.
This thread is locked.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2015/5/19 23:12||Profile|