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 Is it the Last Days? A Video Presentation I Recently Made

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Hello fellow Sermon Index members.

My name is Jason Holman and I have been a member of this site since July of 2003. However, I originally logged in under a different name (PJ).

At the time I signed up (in 2003), God was beginning a radical work in my life, and some of the material at Sermon Index was used to spur that work along.

If you are a Sermon Index “old timer,” you may remember a post I shared during that time in my life. I titled it “Keep the Fire Burning!” For a few years, Greg kept the post as a sticky in the general topics section. If you would like to see that post, you can view it through the following link. http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=340&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

For the record, I am not trying to bring up an old post in order to revive it (it wouldn’t do any good anyway because the thread is locked). But instead, I am only trying to make myself a little bit more familiar to those who visit this site. My hope is that if you know me just a bit, you may be a little more willing to watch or listen to the recording I am trying to share.

The video is 40 minutes long (actually 43, but you can skip the last 3 minutes if you like). And I realize that in today’s world, 40 minutes is a whole lot of time to request of someone, especially if the person requesting the time is a complete stranger.

So hopefully by adding this bit of an introduction, I have made myself just a little bit less of a stranger to you. And hopefully you will now be just a bit more willing to give me the 40 minutes of your time I am requesting.

Please don’t let the title of this recording fool you (Is it the Last Days?). I assure you that this is not just another message about how close we are to the end of days. Instead, this recording covers a much more important topic.

At first it may seem a little dull and even predictable; however, despite any initial boredom, I hope you will try to give this message a chance and hear it out until the end.

Thank you very much for your time.



 2015/5/10 11:07
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 36863
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re: Is it the Last Days? A Video Presentation I Recently Made

Brother,

I suppose my question would be if the institution of the Church is wrong then all or almost all of the speakers on SermonIndex were a part of these larger denominations and a part of the problem? Whether it is early church fathers or the history of the church in general, it has been clear that God has desired people to gather in physical locations and not just being a part of the spiritual universal Church.

I have recently spoken to some people that hold to the belief that anything with the word "Church" is wrong because its not the best translation of the word Ekklesia in the greek. My personal observation is there is mostly hurt feelings in these cases of people who have tried to fit into Church experiences in the West and had a hard time and therefore created a theology or standard that would nullify all the Church except for those individuals who are really seeing the truth and not, in most cases gathering physically with other believers.

I am glad to hear Sermonindex has been an personal encouragement to your growth in Christ and staying close to Him.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/5/10 15:01Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Is it the Last Days? A Video Presentation I Recently Made

Hi brother Jason, here's my two cents for all it's worth.

Points of agreement:

God’s Word does indeed teach that we have been in the last days since the first century AD, as you clearly pointed out from several scriptures.

There have definitely been many false teachers creeping into many so-called “institutional” and/or “denominational” churches, leading many professing Christians astray with damnable heresies. All the warnings about that in God’s Word are definitely applicable today just as much as when they were first penned. However, this would also apply to many “non-institutional” gatherings of Christians both in the past and present.

Within many so-called institutional churches there has definitely been a false gospel preached, a false gospel that has held many professing Christians under a delusion. The false gospel I think you are alluding to is a false gospel that says all you need to do is “accept” Jesus as your Savior and try to be a “good Christian” by doing good “churchy” things. Some refer to it as easy-believism, cheap grace, and hyper grace. It is a false gospel that leaves out genuine biblical repentance.

Points of disagreement:

You referenced 1 John 2:27 to make the point that we do not need any human teachers of God’s Word today due to there being so much deception. I don’t agree with that interpretation because I believe it contradicts other portions of God’s Word which clearly validate the gift and ministry of teaching and teachers of God's Word (Rom. 12:7; 1Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11; 1Tim.3:2).

You seemed to imply that all so-called institutional churches preach a false gospel. That is simply and clearly not true. I can point out quite a few so-called "institutional churches" that preach the true biblical gospel of Jesus Christ and do not water it down or compromise it at all.

You seemed to state clearly that all those who are involved in a so-called institutional and/or denominational church are under a serious delusion and are not following the Lord with all their heart. You seemed to state that they are all in some kind of rebellion and under the judgment of God. You stated that they are all in a path leading them to certain destruction and that they must wake up in order to escape it. I think those kinds of statements cause unnecessary division and hurt within the Body of Christ.

There was a time in my walk when I felt similarly but afterward I realized I was wrong. I realized I was holding on to hurt and bitterness in my heart toward other Christians and churches because they did not "do church" as I preferred. I realized I myself was under an “anti-institutional church” delusion. I had a very divisive attitude toward other brethren.


_________________
Oracio

 2015/5/11 13:24Profile









 Re:

I don't have the time to watch the video but based on Greg and Oracio's comments it sounds that the video is strongly anti-denominational. I'm writing my thoughts because they are different than the others and hopefully compliments them.

I do have some agreement that this all could be 'from a hurt heart' but I'd like to encourage you. Why? because God will work with your convictions. He will lead you and guide you and it seems to me that God is building you up internally.

I'd like to compare this with a patient and doctor relationship.

Many people/patients today don't know a thing about their body, they don't listen to it, they don't educate themselves, they just pay for a doctor to 'take care of it'. As if the doctor has all the answers and having a doctor will prevent all the issues.

This is grave for the person because the doctor isn't omniscient (all knowing) and doesn't know all the details unless you provide it to them.

In contrast, a patient who listens to their body, educates themselves, asks a lot of questions, or for lack of a better phrase 'takes personal responsibility for their health' will get BETTER care than the negligent patient.

The saints are the patients. The doctors are the teachers/preachers (within and without denomination ties).

Jason, I'd strongly encourage you to seek God. Seek out who He is. It sounds like to me God is building your foundations right now and they are critical because *your choices*, *your beliefs*, and *your education* lies in *your* hands, not the pastor's, not a denomination, not anyone but you alone.

God will ask *you* for an account for *your* words. Dig your well deep. Listen to people but 'test all things'. I feel like God is building you up and telling you 'it's okay to test the truth because truth will remain like pure gold'.

I pray that you will be blessed by this.

P.S. *'s are for emphasis. Think italics. Not shouting. Think slowly and firmly saying those words.

 2015/5/11 15:42









 Re:

To Greg and Oracio,

Thanks for taking time to watch the video.

I intend to reply to your comments, however, I do not currently have the time to make a thorough reply.

I work for myself as a handyman in Oklahoma, and we have recently had a whole lot of rain. The rain is a great thing for this drought stricken state, but it has caused me to get way behind schedule (I do a whole lot of yard work). So now that the sun is shining again, I have to play catchup. However, rain is once again in the forecast so I should soon have a little extra time on my hands.

Thanks for your patience - Jason

 2015/5/11 22:34









 Re:

Greg Said

Quote:
Brother,

I suppose my question would be if the institution of the Church is wrong then all or almost all of the speakers on SermonIndex were a part of these larger denominations and a part of the problem?



I will do my best to respond to this directly and clearly. However, by doing so, it is possible that I may lose my welcome to post anything in the future at your site. For the record, I would rather not lose my welcome to post here, but I realize that that is really up to you. This is your forum, and if you don’t want me to post again after this, I will certainly respect you request.

I am afraid that my introduction may have caused a little bit of confusion. For I said, that when God began a radical work in my life years ago, he used some of the material at Sermon Index to spur that work along.

I said that because that was the truth. There were a couple of incredible truths that God needed to bring to my attention, and God used a couple of the messages at Sermon Index to bring these truths to my attention. Had I not been a part of Sermon Index, I am confident that God would have still brought these truths to my attention. But it was ultimately your website that was used as the mechanism to bring those truths to light.

That is the truth, and I am very thankful that these particular nuggets of truth were present at Sermon Index. However, that is all that you will ever find within any message presented from anyone who is yet a part of this institution that calls itself the church. You will only find “nuggets” of truth. God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction and God can use these nuggets of truth to lead someone to the whole truth. But you will never find the whole truth spoken anywhere within this institution that calls itself the church.

The message of the institutionalized church is one of rebellion and death. There is no life to be found in message she proclaims. For this institution does not belong to God and never has. It exists primarily to separate the wheat from the chaff. This institution proclaims the great lie that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians. And those who fail to turn to God with sincere faith will forever believe this lie until it leads them to their destruction.

So to clearly respond to your question: Yes, there are nuggets of truth to be found at Sermon Index, and God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction. But as a whole, the core doctrine and message proclaimed through these sermons is leading people to destruction.


Quote:
Whether it is early church fathers or the history of the church in general, it has been clear that God has desired people to gather in physical locations and not just being a part of the spiritual universal Church.
I have recently spoken to some people that hold to the belief that anything with the word "Church" is wrong because its not the best translation of the word Ekklesia in the greek. My personal observation is there is mostly hurt feelings in these cases of people who have tried to fit into Church experiences in the West and had a hard time and therefore created a theology or standard that would nullify all the Church except for those individuals who are really seeing the truth and not, in most cases gathering physically with other believers.



For the record, I love the Church. The Church is God’s family and it is my family. It is made up of all who have faith like Abraham. It is made up of all who have the favor of God. It is made up all who have become on flesh with Christ. It is made up all who have taken part in his death and his resurrection. Oh, how I love to read about my family in the scripture, and oh how I long to fellowship with them today. And when God brings these people into my life, I will rejoice and gladly drive a thousand miles to spend just an hour with one of my brothers.

But there is not the slightest chance I am going to give even an hour of my time to this institution that claims to be that which she is not. This institution is a rebellious empire that has no fear of God and no love for God.

Now, I am not saying that all who are within this institution are hopeless - for I also spent 29 years holding on to her hand. And just as God called me to turn to him with all my heart, and just as he called to me to love his truth with everything in me, I am fully confident that there is a great multitude within this empire that has yet to hear his voice. And when God calls these people, he is not going to say that “the institutionalized church is a fraud, so get out!” Instead, he will simply call them to true repentance. And as they turn to him in true repentance, it will ultimately be their love for God and their love for his truth that will lead them out of this empire.

Greg, I am thankful that I have been allowed to post on your forum. I don’t desire to be blocked from posting, but I understand if you do. If you go through the history of my post, I think you will find that except for this video, and except for this post (which by the way is only done as a response to your question) I have not made a habit of coming here sharing my beliefs about this institution. Nor do I have an intention of making such a habit.

When I post something here, it is never with the hope of stirring up trouble. Nor do I post here in order to gain a following. Instead, when I post, it is always from a heart of hope. Nearly 12 years ago, God performed a great miracle in my life through his glorious gospel. And I am not at all stingy with what God has done for me. I love to share it and I can’t help but hope to one day see someone else take part in the same miracle. So I hope this door stays open to me, but if you close it, it is certainly your right to do so.

Thanks again for taking the time to watch the video and for letting me post.

Jason Holman

Oracio, I will try to respond to your reply sometime in the near future.


 2015/5/13 14:44
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 36863
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
That is the truth, and I am very thankful that these particular nuggets of truth were present at Sermon Index. However, that is all that you will ever find within any message presented from anyone who is yet a part of this institution that calls itself the church. You will only find “nuggets” of truth. God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction and God can use these nuggets of truth to lead someone to the whole truth. But you will never find the whole truth spoken anywhere within this institution that calls itself the church.

The message of the institutionalized church is one of rebellion and death. There is no life to be found in message she proclaims. For this institution does not belong to God and never has. It exists primarily to separate the wheat from the chaff. This institution proclaims the great lie that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians. And those who fail to turn to God with sincere faith will forever believe this lie until it leads them to their destruction.




Brother,

Towards yourself having the freedom to post, that is not in question, where we do have a rule is users repeatedly posting their own videos, blog posts, links to their sermons etc. The reason for this is to try and keep SermonIndex a place where one cannot promote themselves overly. I see no problem in you posting this video and desiring discussion, but if there were repeated videos, etc then we might have to ask you to stop posting them.

Also just because I myself disagree with you does not mean you cannot post on the site either. The forums is a place for everyone from different backgrounds to learn from each other and encourage each other, when that line is crossed where someone is trying to force someone to believe what they believe or repeatedly speak on the same subject then we can also step in to ask them to stop. Some people have been asked to leave the site we have had to delete accounts sadly simply because someone would not stop on a subject over and over through continually pushing the agenda (specific topic).

I think it is very healthy to have this discussion on the Church as an "institution" as you are calling it and have others contribute to this discussion.

Some general observations I have made is that people do not come to the conclusions you are coming to without being hurt by the structured church in some way.

Another thought to add to this is that I know in Church history no group of believers that believed the physical ordered, structured gathering of believers is wrong.

The only writings I have found on this topic is modern believers who have been hurt by the church, some small house churches exist with this teaching.

I would also be interested to know others that you esteem that carry this viewpoint and is there a movement of believers who hold to these things?


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/5/13 15:01Profile









 Re:

Greg said:

Quote:
Brother,

Towards yourself having the freedom to post, that is not in question, where we do have a rule is users repeatedly posting their own videos, blog posts, links to their sermons etc. The reason for this is to try and keep SermonIndex a place where one cannot promote themselves overly. I see no problem in you posting this video and desiring discussion, but if there were repeated videos, etc then we might have to ask you to stop posting them.

Also just because I myself disagree with you does not mean you cannot post on the site either. The forums is a place for everyone from different backgrounds to learn from each other and encourage each other, when that line is crossed where someone is trying to force someone to believe what they believe or repeatedly speak on the same subject then we can also step in to ask them to stop. Some people have been asked to leave the site we have had to delete accounts sadly simply because someone would not stop on a subject over and over through continually pushing the agenda (specific topic).

I think it is very healthy to have this discussion on the Church as an "institution" as you are calling it and have others contribute to this discussion.



Thank you Greg, I appreciate your response.

Quote:
Some general observations I have made is that people do not come to the conclusions you are coming to without being hurt by the structured church in some way.



Though I am sure that I had my feelings hurt at some point during my years within this institution, there is nothing that really stands out in my memory. For the most part, the people within this institution were always good to me.

At the time God called me and began working in my life (2003), I was a children’s pastor at a fairly large Assemblies of God “church”. The people in the congregation treated my family and I very well. In addition to that, we were also paid a fairly decent salary (especially considering I had no degree of any kind). Sometimes I would get a little frustrated with the work load, but apart from that, I had no animosity towards anyone nor did I have any kind of hurt feelings. Had it not been for the very real work of God that happened in my life, I could very well still be on staff there to this day.
So with that said, I hope you will trust that my conclusions were/are in no way inspired by hurt feelings.

Quote:
Another thought to add to this is that I know in Church history no group of believers that believed the physical ordered, structured gathering of believers is wrong.



Greg, I first need to establish, the my regard for Church history ends with the scripture. Because of my certainty that the world entered into a season of deception 1900 years ago, and because I believe that this institution called the church is actually an imposter that arose during these days of great deception, I hold no regard for any of the opinions they have arisen since that time. But with that said, I do not see any opposition within the New Testament to believers gathering together for fellowship and encouragement, but I instead see that as encouraged. So I hope you can see, my opposition is not in regards to the fact that this institution tries to organize meetings. Instead, my argument is that this intuition has absolutely no real connection to that which was born on Pentecost. For I am absolutely 100 percent certain that this institution that calls itself the church has no direct ties to the true church that was born on Pentecost. Instead, I fully believe that this institution was born during these days of great deception and is a part of this great deception.

Quote:
The only writings I have found on this topic is modern believers who have been hurt by the church, some small house churches exist with this teaching.

.

As I stated above, I assure you that hurt feelings are not my motivation. Also you should know that I do not endorse any house meetings that I know of - for even though these people have left the structure of this institution behind, they are still proclaiming her core doctrines and they still believe that they have life because of this core doctrine. And since it is the doctrine of this institution that is death, these people are no better off.

Quote:
I would also be interested to know others that you esteem that carry this viewpoint and is there a movement of believers who hold to these things?



At this point in time, and after 10 years of coming to this understanding, I have met no one who shares my understanding. Of course, I can find many of people who think that the institution called the church is evil. There are plenty of loony "churches" who think that they are the only true church and that everything else called church is evil. However, these groups typically radiate anger and hate, and a quick examination of their doctrine is all it takes for me to know that we have nothing in common.

 2015/5/13 17:42
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 36863
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Brother,

As per below it shows all the dates of when the New Testament books were written and the estimated death of the Apostle John, supposedly the last Apostle to be alive of the 12 Apostles. though there were more Apostles and Timothy was younger as there were other Deacons also.

So your opinion is the New Testament Church fully apostatized right after the death of the Apostles? Somewhere A.D. 100 -130?

Was there traces of this wrong "Church" system in the New Testament or did this all just happen after the New Testament was written?

If you have not been able to find anyone else who has the same understanding as you do, then how do you know you are right and not deceived? Would it not make sense if what you are believing is true at least some others would see exactly the same things?

EDIT: What are the "her core doctrines" specifically?

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96



John: No death date given by early writers. Death date is by conjecture only and is variously assigned as being between 89 AD to 120 AD


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2015/5/13 18:58Profile









 Re:

Greg,
If it ever seems that I am dodging a question or comment, let me assure you I am not. However , it can be difficult to explain everything in a satisfactory manner through writing, without devoting a whole lot of time to do so. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, it is only because I lack the time to fully explain it at them moment.

In regards to your question:

Quote:
What are the "her core doctrines" specifically?



This deserves a longer answer, but in summary, her doctrine is that you can escape the death penalty and receive eternal life by making a deal with God. She proclaims that God will grant us salvation as long a we do such and such. In other words, she proclaims that a man can be saved by works.

I am sure you are a bit puzzled as to why I think this (for after all, the protestant church claims just the opposite). However, please look over this post that I made a few months back. If you do, I think you will understand my position a little better.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=53944&forum=35

I got to go right now. However, I will try to reply to more of this later.

 2015/5/13 20:57





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