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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Discipline

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 Re:

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It appears to me you already have made up your mind what you want to believe and wish others to affirm that. You want to dismiss the practice of "physically reprimanding", using "Strongs" to dismantle this concept. But you want scripture to be used to affirm what you believe. Good idea.



No. If you read my post, I'm being like a Berean. Diligently searching the scripture. The first thing I found is discipline doesn't mean physically hitting a child. Due to the Strong's.

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May I suggest you approach the WORD with the goal of trying to understand who God is, what is he like, how does he function, how does he deal with his children, the disobedient, the wicked. You can begin by reading Genesis and go all the way through to Revelation. Do not argue with scripture - allow it to teach you.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. This is exactly what I'm doing.

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I do not want to tell you what you will find but you will find a writer whose first half of the book is filled with judgments upon nations and the last half filled with promises and mercy.


That sounds like telling me. I see a God who is alive, personal, and abundant in forgiveness in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Sounds different but it's the same Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3-7)

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Study the WORD asking the LORD to speak to you and you will find your preconceived ideas dismantled, being replaced by God's will. And....much as I like Strong's, I suggest you lay it aside for the duration of this study; it can get you all bogged down...if there are questions, make a note of them and keep on going. In his time the Holy Spirit will answer them. I know, been there done that and am still there doing that!



This is what I'm doing and that's what happening. But I believe there is no laying aside tools to mine gold. You may discredit Strong's for your own reasons but using the Strong's is like taking a precision knife and finding new meat on the words of Scripture.

The tone of your post makes me think you strongly disagree with Strong's instead of seeing the Strong's for what it is, a book of definitions (with some cultural context). I'd encourage you to embrace what the Strong's says, since it's only adding additional light to Scripture.

This study on discipline has developed to looking into 'chastisement' 'how to raise children' 'rod' and probably will explore other concepts. All I can speak for is what I wrote in my original post. The word 'discipline' in Scripture doesn't mean 'physical punishment' (or it's synonyms). There are Scriptures that speak of a 'rod' and 'children' but I haven't fully explored them yet and I will in the coming weeks.

Also, my way of studying is to look at every side. Not just one. I look for Jesus and many times I see Jesus in multiple interpretations but I prefer to remain open to every perspective. That's what I'm doing here and I'm not refusing anything. I just haven't gotten there yet.

 2015/4/23 12:10









 Re:

So, when I do studies like this. When I challenge the existing mindset of the common Christian or my upbringing, I tend to dig into everything fairly deep.

I realized that with this study. I ended up studying another Hebrew word but I realized it was a rabbit trail I was going on. I first investigated the translated word 'discipline' and discovered that the word discipline means to teach or to admonish. This study might go on for months since there are so many mindsets surrounding this topic of raising children.

The next Hebrew word I studied is H3198 'yakach'. What led me to study this word is that there were a few verses regarding correction (prov. 3:12 ; 9:7, 8, 15:12, 19:25, 24:25, 25:12, 28:23, 30:6) and because of it's use/translation as 'chastisement' (2 Sam. 7:14; Job 33:19).

To put it frankly, this word means 'to argue with convincing proof'. Not to physically punish. Many of the verses that used this word are in Job talking about his petition to the Lord.

A verse that stuck out to me was, Isa. 1:18 (MEV) - "Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

The Hebrew word yakach is used for 'let us reason together'.

This is related to discipline/training of a child, only in a minor way, since there is only one verse that uses H3198. Pro 3:12 (NASB).

"For whom the Lord loves He reproves,
Even as a father *corrects* the son in whom he delights."

'Reproves' here in this verse is H3198, yakach. 'Corrects' isn't actually in the text of NASB, it's italicized, hence the stars around the word.

To clarify, this intense study on H3198 helped me understand the words 'rebuke', 'reprove', 'reproach', and 'reproof'. Also, the concept of the church's tools to teaching the Body of Christ character. One doesn't just sit by watching someone waste their life away with alcohol, instead the Church pleads (sometimes gently, sometimes harshly) the case of their error. This comes from a caring and concerning heart, not fault-finding. Or in the case of Prov. 3:12 God isn't looking for sins, He is illuminating them, proving how bad they are, with evidence because He doesn't want us to reap that harvest of the flesh (Gal. 6:8).

 2015/5/2 15:00
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Here is a word you can study - G3811 paideuō

Outline of Biblical Usage

1 - To train children

a) to be instructed or taught or learn
b) to cause one to learn

2- To chastise

a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition

b) of God
1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities

c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
1) of a father punishing his son
2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/5/2 18:46Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Excellent post Fletcher, thank you for sharing your experience, mine has been very similar. I especially appreciated this;

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As a parent of 6 children, all boys, my experience is that one may at times require physical discipline while another may not. It takes humility to discern the difference and what's more to admit to the child when as a parent we got it wrong or sinned (missed the mark) regarding their training.



and this;

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While I do share your concerns that physical discipline can be wrongly employed my experience is the opposite of sister Sandra's in that those who do "spank" generally have the better behaved, more respectful children. Honestly you can't give/teach what you yourself don't have/practice so perhaps is not so much wether one employs physical discipline as it is wether they themselves model an honest discipline for their children. If a child sees their parents faith/reliance upon God they will more than likey seek Him themselves. Which is another way of saying, you can't make a disciple unless you are one and if you are one you're making disciples wether you meant to or not.



It does take humility and wisdom to discern when physical discipline is required. Before I ever spanked one of my children I always sent them to their room first, for two reasons. First for them to consider what they had done and second, for me to have time to consider whether this discipline is just because I was annoyed or inconvenienced in some way or whether it is from a heart of love that sees the trouble down the road that this child's behavior will lead to in their life if it is not dealt with now.

But it is also very true that the best discipline for our children is that we ourselves model honesty, humility, and faith before them.

Who is sufficient for these things? Oh Lord, help us to be godly parents and faithful stewards of such precious gifts.

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2015/5/2 20:37Profile









 Re:

So far in my studies, I've learned that the translators liberally use the word 'discipline' instead of something more illuminating or concrete.

I've looked at H4148 'muwcar', H3198 'yakach', G3809 'paideia', and started looking at G3811 'paideuo'.

Together, these four words include ~100 verses, KJV doesn't use the word discipline, NASB and MEV (NIV and others too) use 'discipline' for many of these verses.

I still have seven other Greek/Hebrew words that I'll be looking into (H3256, H5221, H7626, G3816, G3817, G5180, H3045).

To recap H4148, H3198, G3809 (the three words I've studied) are used a lot when it comes to teaching someone. Teaching can be gentle or stern but they are words that describe the verbal education of the learner. I know I'm not a Hebrew/Greek scholar, nor linguist, but many of these words would be more accurate/concrete if they were to be described as 'admonish'. Due to their biblical context and cultural usage.

Here are some dictionary definitions to admonish:
- v. To reprove gently but earnestly.
- v. To counsel (another) against something to be avoided; caution.
- v. To remind of something forgotten or disregarded, as an obligation or a responsibility.

This study has been an enjoyment. I've seen scriptures I've missed in previous readings. Onward! :)

 2015/5/16 14:38





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