SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Dont believe the lie

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
TMK wrote:
I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth either. But he SEEMS to be saying that true Christians shouldn't hold a "replacement theology" view (even if that is the correct view)...


I've been pondering over your statement for the last week or so and have been looking up 'replacement theology' from several sources and what I've read about it is contrary to Scripture. I think what you're against is "non-Christians" vs true Christians holding this view but the following quotes shows that this has infiltrated the church at large.

Quote:
by Clarence H. Wagner, Jr. wrote:
Perhaps you have heard of the term Replacement Theology. However, if you look it up in a dictionary of Church history, you will not find it listed as a systematic study. Rather, it is a doctrinal teaching that originated in the early Church. It became the fertile soil from which Christian anti-Semitism grew and has infected the Church for nearly 1,900 years.


This seems to be what Joel Richardson is saying as well.

Quote:
from http://replacementtheology.org/
A typical definition of “Replacement Theology” can be paraphrased as such: “Israel has been replaced by the Christian Church, so the promises and prominent position once held by God’s chosen people are now held exclusively by the Church.” Such a view is false.



I looked up that link you gave me about all the covenants but couldn't decipher how that had anything to do with this but that was probably just me not being able to put two and two together!!

I will not pretend to understand all of the in's and out's of 'replacement theology,' I didn't look into it until this thread started.

I wouldn't even had replied again except what interested me was what you wrote: "(even if that is the correct view)." What are your views on this topic? How do you tie the link of the covenants with replacement theology together?

I think you know my history on SI, I'm not trying to argue with you here at all, just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2015/4/20 8:11Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

My understanding is that the Church is the true "Israel of God" in the New Covenant. In other words there isn't one set of promises for Israel and a separate set for the Church. It's just the Church and born again Jews are part of the Church. If they are not born again, they need to be. Some persons believe God has some sort of special promise for the Jewish people and that even someday there will be a re-instituted temple system including animal sacrifices that God will honor. This is untenable to me personally.

I don't see how this belief in any way whatsoever would justify anti-semitism, any more than it would justify prejudice toward ANY unbeliever.


_________________
Todd

 2015/4/20 8:29Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

This will be largely influenced by whether one is a preterist or futurist and to what degree. Preterist thought largely eliminates from future events any Israel sprcific prophecy. When combined with Paul's "Israel of God" language describing the church, the futurists and Zionist Christians invariably use the phrase "replacement theology" to describe them. It can be a home to anti-Semites, but not if they are true Christians.

Futurists largely believe that the antiChrist/tribulation prophecies are yet unfulfilled of course. So, the upshot of all of the language about temples and sacrifices and Judea and fleeing to mountains, etc., tend to make them believe that Israel remains a separate covenant people for whom God has a unique plan. Any talk of the church as the Israel of God bristles their feathers up and draws the replacement theology label as an epithet.

Why can't the Bible just speak for itself? The church is the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16. God has not rejected Israel; He has included the Gentiles into Israel's promise....that IS Christianity. One promise. One people. One covenant. One spiritual nation.

Does God have a plan for Israel? Yes. Paul said it. Romans 10:1, 9:3, 4; 11:1. See also Acts 5:31.

The plan? Save them through the blood of Jesus. Same promise. Same people (in Christ, the holy nation, the royal priesthood), same covenant.

Beyond the plan He has for all the redeemed Scripture reveals no particular promise to Israel in the flesh in the eschaton. Now, is it possible that we should understand the MEANS of His plan in real time "on the ground", as it were, to include the actions as seen through futurist-viewed-interpretations of the prophetic passages? Yes. Does that negate the recognition of natural Israel as having its own unfulfilled covenant with God? Yes. Does it put the quietas on Israel-hocking sales pitches by televangelists? Oh, that it would! It should!

Does it counter the Word of God? If so, I do not see where.


_________________
Tim

 2015/4/20 9:07Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Well said, Tim. I certainly agree.


_________________
Todd

 2015/4/20 9:27Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


Never thought I would say this but.... where's Krispy when you need him??? (Hehe miss u krisp).

Like I said before I'm not going to pretend I know everything about this and that wouldn't even be a thimble full, but I'm at work right now and can't cite anything.

I think Joel might lean toward post trib but I'm just going on what I think he said in one of his interviews!!!

As for thought now, I am going to have disagree with you. :) no surprise there, right? Haha

God bless
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2015/4/20 16:26Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

I did not read all the posts on this thread but enough that confirms a reality when people get to discussing eschatology. There is vast disagreement among those who do believe Jesus is returning. It is the "when" where the conflicts, disagreements arise.

Presently I am reading Revelation - again. I learn something new every time I read it. This always leaves me in awe and wonder - and I love it! This comforts me, especially when I read about wars/conflicts in the world. I learn that conflicts/wars will be the norm - Believers will never be able to rid the world of them; I learn Christians will be over come by the beast, they will be killed; I learn God will allow some to beheaded so he will have some to rule with him when he comes to set up his kingdom. I learn the anti-Christ will be able to perform many marvelous miracles/works - and that I need to limit my awe with the marvelous works performed at the hands of men.

There is so much practical teaching there that one can take to heart, learning from it. It will comfort, strengthen. Somehow I suspect the devil is working to disrupt this learning, edifying process by getting people all in a stir about the specifics of Jesus second coming.

My understanding.

Sandra Miller


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2015/4/21 9:41Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

What is called Replacement Theology is totally harmless. Just because certain men who believed in this persecuted Jews, does not mean all who believe in it will end up hating Jews. I have not read the book nor heart the author Joel, but based on certain posts, I hear that he is saying this theology will bring hatred to Jews. I do not agree with it at all, I am in fact a strong supporter for Jews, will hide them if required like how Corie did!

First and foremost, Jews are no longer Special in NT. Why? Because the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles is now broken. We do not need to consider them any superior nor inferior. They need Jesus equally like how we need Jesus.

In NT, the Church is God's chosen one, not any physical nation. God still protects Israel but that is because Old Covenant is only obsolete but not forgotten totally.

Let us neither look up to Jews nor look down to them.


_________________
Sreeram

 2015/4/22 8:04Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Staff wrote

Quote:

"It would be as it was in the days of Noah and Lot"
They will eat drink marry etc UNTIL Noah got into the Ark and Lot got taken out of Sodom.There was no judgement until God's People were safe.Jesus pointed out that everything was totally normal with the world including sin "UNTIL" God's peop;e are safe.Then the judgement came immediately after God's People were taken out no gaps in time immediate


I am a Post tribulation believer but I hardly argue on this non important theology. I just want to point out that the verse quoted above does not prove Pretrib.

The point Jesus was trying to make is, there will be no sign given to unbelievers about the appearance of Jesus. They will be busy with their work, but for us who are compared to Noah and Lot, God will give clear sign and tell us about his coming.

Bible says that righteous Lot was persecuted in Sodom, similarly Noah was also mocked for preaching righteousness to a stubborn people. So Godly people will suffer persecution before the coming of Jesus. In fact the verse that you quoted supports Post trib rapture.

I do not agree great tribulation is God’s wrath. Is there any Biblical verse to prove it? I am not challenging you, but want to know whether this view is Biblical. If so then I am wiling to change my view.


_________________
Sreeram

 2015/4/22 8:12Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


 Re:

Quote:

You know everytime their is a conversation on this subject some one brings up Corrie Ten Boom's beliefs on the tribulation.
Although she is a great christian example her belief's are experiential doctrine and based totally on what she was going through not on the bible.Her belief may however be correct although I dont hold to it but her view is based on her experiences not on the bible.
Many followers of God suffered Persecution which led to death in the bible and many did not,so to base our Tribulation view on what is going on around at a particular time in history is not proper exegesis.
For Instance Billy Graham preached successfully for decades, did not die physically for his faith in Christ or was not persecuted in the way Corrie Ten Boom was so can I say on the basis of Billy Grahams experiences that their will be no persecution or that we will not go through the great tribulation.NO I CANT and in the same way I cant base my view of the tribulation on Corrie Ten Booms Experiences and say we will go through the tribulation
The Corrie Ten Boom arguement is a red herring in the debate and sheds no light on the subject in my opinion,
Yours Staff



You are placing a very good logical argument, I loved reading it. Hence thought I will post my counter argument.

Now based on your argument, to be consistent with it, you should believe that what Paul wrote to Timothy 2 Tim 3:12 is due to his personal experience of being persecuted. Hence it is not a valid scripture, because there are many Godly men like Billy Graham who have not suffered any persecution. Can we do this? Do you see the flaw in your argument?

Now Billy, would have definitely suffered persecution if he was true to God in what he preached. Either we do not know about his persecution or he did was flexible! These are 2 other possibilities that we have to consider before making a statement out of his experience.

Now when Communist first came to China, the Chinese Christians were never told about persecution, all their missionaries from West preached them Pre Tribulation rapture. Now when they saw really persecution, they blamed the missionaries for not preaching them the truth. If they were preached the truth, they would have been ready. You may ask me how they could have made themselves ready for persecution. But there is a difference between somone striking you from back and striking from front. Attack from back takes us by surprise and adds shock to pain!


I seriously believe that people are free to believe in Pre tribulation rapture but should not preach the same because there is a great danger to stand unprepared during persecution, which is promised to all believers.


_________________
Sreeram

 2015/4/22 8:24Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Sree
You said it yourself
Quote:
They will be busy with their work,

How could they busy with their work just prior to Jesus Post tribulation appearance?
Jesus made two clear points
1. Until
2.Everything is normal before Judgement

Everything else including your points you have to read into the text

What is your verse to prove its not God's Wrath?
What has your mind so convinced its not Gods Wrath?
Yours Staff

 2015/4/22 17:46Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy