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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

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TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

TMK writes:

4) A person who claims be to born again and is trying, despite repeated failures, to follow Jesus, and is trying to forsake his own claims to his life, despite failures, is likely born again, and via the work of the Holy Spirit will grow more in Christ and his failures should become less frequent.

Thank you for bringing this up. I made mention of it in my previous post and I think it needs repeating. If we tie our salvation to performed obedience we get into trouble for who can say that they obey perfectly all the time? Then the next question is how much can you fall short of perfect obedience and still be saved? Going down this sort of speculation and reasoning becomes a promotion of legalism.

However, when we stop obsessing over the "outside of the cup" and realize that all conduct and behavior is a product of what is in the heart we come to true understanding and wisdom. The born again experience (regeneration) occurs when one exercises faith in Christ and repentance from sin. Faith is more than mental assent to doctrinal truth. It involves TRUST which speaks to relationship and adoption as sons and daughters of God. Repentance involves having a sincere intention and desire to turn away from sin and to live a life pleasing and submitted to the Lord Jesus Christ. In the early stage of the Christian life repentance as evidenced by performed obedience is never perfect. In my own life when I became born again there were many sins and habits that fell away like dead skin but there were some besetting sins that still plagued me. I know however that I was not a false convert because I never was comfortable with having known sin in my life. I even had a Romans 7 type experience to get me out from living a life of self-improvement, trying to perfect myself instead of trusting and relying on the Holy Spirit and the indwelling life of Christ to overcome. Sanctification is a life-long process and I am still on this journey.

I think we would do well to not put the cart before the horse and focus solely on conduct and behavior without taking into consideration the person's heart. The pharisees were scrupulous in outward religious behavior and I'm sure that all the Jews thought they were so holy and godly. Jesus saw their hearts and called them offspring of the devil in spite of their good works. They lacked a loving relationship with God. They were playing a selfish game of trying to earn right standing and acceptance with God by relying on self effort to perfect themselves.

At the judgment Jesus will tell many of His followers to depart from Him and they will be shocked by this. They will list their good works to Him and He will call them "workers of iniquity". If you read this and think that "being saved" or "getting into heaven" is about doing good works or acts of obedience and therefore we have to try harder, you will have missed the most important point. He said "I never knew you". They didn't have a close intimate relationship of trust and reliance upon their Lord. If they had pursued this type of relationship their good works and obedience would have followed naturally.

While I don't think it is possible to put a fine line upon where exactly the level of "good works" or "obedience" displays or reveals a state of salvation or reprobation, if a person lives in a state of repeated and habitual gross sin without any distress in that state, I think it is safe to say that such a person does not have a saving relationship with Christ. I also think that there is such a thing as a carnal Christian but such a state is one of dangerous plunging toward shipwrecking one's faith. Nobody should feel comfortable being carnal or want to stay there. Anyone wanting to stay carnal and feels OK with that state does not realize that at some point their relationship with the Lord will become meaningless and they will fall away completely. The Lord will tell them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you". The key is their relationship with the Lord. Are they pressing in and pursuing the Lord in love? If so, their obedience will follow. And since sanctification is a process, obedience in this life will never be perfect but we should want it to be such and when we fall short we will be hurt, not because we think we lost our salvation but because we missed an opportunity to bring delight to our Lord.

 2015/2/26 11:37Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
While I don't think it is possible to put a fine line upon where exactly the level of "good works" or "obedience" displays or reveals a state of salvation or reprobation, if a person lives in a state of repeated and habitual gross sin without any distress in that state, I think it is safe to say that such a person does not have a saving relationship with Christ.


That’s the whole point being made on the side of submitting to Christ as Lord. Those who espouse easy-believism say that it’s possible for a person to go on in gross habitual sin without any distress in that state and still have assurance of salvation because they “believe” and that's all that's needed for salvation or assurance.

TMK wrote:
Quote:
I agree that a lot has been written on this thread. Perhaps there is some misunderstanding of what is being proposed- at least as to what **I** am proposing, so I will try to summarize it succinctly.

1) Jesus **IS** Lord: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” Acts 2:36

2)That Jesus is Lord is surely part of the gospel that must be believed. If Jesus is Lord, an affirmation of His right to rule and be Lord and Master would make it necessary that we **make it our aim to obey Him**, or else we deny that which we profess:

"They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed." Titus 1:16

3) To me, "easy-believism" applies to someone who claims to have been born again because they raised their hand in a Sunday school class 20 years ago but have no intention of submitting to (i.e. obeying) Jesus as Lord **now**. That person is not saved, and that is the danger.

4) A person who claims be to born again and is trying, despite repeated failures, to follow Jesus, and is trying to forsake his own claims to his life, despite failures, is likely born again, and via the work of the Holy Spirit will grow more in Christ and his failures should become less frequent.


I believe I can agree with that summation in essence. The only thing I’d add is that point 4 may need more clarification because the words “trying to forsake his own claims to his life, despite failures” can be easily misunderstood by those who espouse easy-believism and by false converts in general. Many professing Christians think that they are trying to be obedient to Christ by simply doing things like going to church or going forward during an altar call and confessing their sins. Many think that they can simply "believe" and do things like read the Bible, pray, and live like a demon the rest of the time and be saved. Why? Because the easy-believism false gospel has told them that.

But again, a true believer will not be comfortable with any known sin in their life but will grieve to the point of being willing to do whatever it takes to get rid of any known sin. I’ll share this quote from MacArthur which I think explains it well:

“A Christian isn't somebody who buys fire insurance, who signs up for an escape clause to keep him out of hell. Puritan William Perkins wrote these words, ‘The true Christian, is of this disposition of mind; that if there were no conscience to accuse, no devil to terrify, no judge to arraign or condemn, no hell to torment, yet he would be humbled and brought to his knees for his sins; because he has offended a loving, merciful and longsuffering God.’ That’s the difference. The truly repentant sinner is devastated by the way he has offended God with his sin. He’s not whimsically looking for some fire insurance. A true disciple loves, a true disciple obeys. We don’t love perfectly, we don’t obey perfectly. Sometimes we love very imperfectly and disobey. But the pattern of life is obedience and love for the Lord. And even when we fail to love Him we feel the guilt, we fail to obey Him we feel the guilt, because we do belong to Him. We have that intimate relationship which God in His grace has given to us."


_________________
Oracio

 2015/2/26 13:38Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Zeko – to answer your question - we are born sinners.

Quote: The transaction wasn't partial it was total. Thats why the law has no hold on a dead person. Rom 7:1

Our position in Christ: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Our New Position constitutes a new beginning for the believer, neutralizing the effects of our previous position in Adam. Our New Position is totally the work of God 1 Cor. 1:30

God sees every Christian as being "in Christ." We have this new position in Christ because of our justification by faith. We are in Christ we are identified with Him in His death, burial, resurrection and exaltation.

He [God] made Him [Jesus Christ] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" 2 Cor 5:21

When God justifies the sinner he actually counts them righteous when they are not.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/26 14:22Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

quote: "When God justifies the sinner..."

That is the burning question here. "When" does this happen?


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/26 14:36Profile
SonsofLevi
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 107
Richmond, Va. USA

 Re:

The sinner is justified when he is born of the Spirit and his human spirit is quickened alive and is in union with Christ.
There is a repentance which is of the flesh by self-effort. that is not acceptable to God. This is what you see the multitudes doing. There is also a repentance which is the office of the Holy Spirit and not an act of the will alone which is true repentance.
Most of what is being preached and taught in the matter of modern day preaching of "Lordship Salvation", even these so called leaders that write exhaustive concordances, is of the first type in which the Scriptures refer to as "a form of godliness being taught but denying the power thereof". They do nothing but puff up the "self-life" to do good and feel smart because of human wisdom. It is a powerless gospel that preaches self-effort repentance. All the saints in whom their works have abided and are abiding the centuries and ages have testified that true repentance by grace is an act of the Holy Spirit and not man. A.W. Tozer is a good and true example of Lordship salvation preached but did not deny the power thereof. A true believer knows whether what is being preached has the power of the Holy Ghost in it or not.


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R. Evan Gombach

 2015/2/26 15:59Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

quote:

"true repentance by grace is an act of the Holy Spirit and not man."

Then why did Jesus, John the B, Peter and Paul command men to repent? If it was not in their power to do so, it wasn't very nice of them to tell men that they must. Kind of like commanding my 3 year old grandson to cook a 5 course dinner.


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/26 16:07Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

quote: "When God justifies the sinner..."

That is the burning question here. "When" does this happen?

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness Rom 4:3

When you believe God...


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/26 16:24Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Then why did Jesus, John the B, Peter and Paul command men to repent? If it was not in their power to do so, it wasn't very nice of them to tell men that they must. Kind of like commanding my 3 year old grandson to cook a 5 course dinner.

If God so decided to command your 3 year old Grandson to cook his 5 course meal, and your Grandson believed what God said; then we would find that God would also supply him with the ability (grace) to cook the 5 course meal.

All things are possible...

Quote:It is a powerless gospel that preaches self-effort repentance. All the saints in whom their works have abided and are abiding the centuries and ages have testified that true repentance by grace is an act of the Holy Spirit and not man.

Self-effort repentance is a old covenant message

Andrew Murray THE TWO COVENANTS

In the Old Covenant man had the opportunity given him to prove what He could do with the aid of all the means of grace God could bestow. That Covenant ended in man proving his own unfaithfulness and failure.

In the New Covenant, God is to prove what He can do with man, all unfaithful and feeble as he is, when He is allowed and trusted to do all the work.

The Old Covenant was one dependent on man's obedience, one which he could break, and did break. The New Covenant was one which God has engaged shall never be broken; He Himself keeps it and ensures our keeping it: so He makes it an Everlasting Covenant.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/26 17:00Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

quote: "When you believe God..."

How do we know that Abraham believed God? Better yet, how did God know?


_________________
Todd

 2015/2/26 20:27Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: How do we know that Abraham believed God? Better yet, how did God know?

Is this a real question, are you being sincere?


_________________
Colin Murray

 2015/2/27 2:06Profile





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