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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

What is a carnal christian and how do they fit into the lordship message?


Edit: to add 'how do they fit into the lordship message'


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Colin Murray

 2015/2/15 18:36Profile
Anamosa41
Member



Joined: 2011/10/19
Posts: 112
Georgia, USA

 Re: Forthright Talk on the “Non-Lordship” Message

Excellent post, Brother Oracio. This has been a matter of concern for me as I also attend an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. The pastor is much more lenient than most IFB pastors about his free grace theology, sounding almost more of a believer in the perseverance of the saints, but claims to renounce Lordship salvation all the same. I, however, do not understand how anyone can possibly reject the doctrine of Lordship salvation. It is so clearly laid out in the Scriptures, especially 1 John. I do believe in the perseverance of the saints, but it is only in their persevering that they do show themselves to be born again. It is as Paul said, how can we who have died to sin live any longer in it (Rom. 6:2)?


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Ryan Rutan

 2015/2/15 21:44Profile
turn
Member



Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

The church of Jesus Christ needs both revival (of things lost from the "good old days") but also advancement into vitality never seen previously. All ethnic nations must yet be taught and disciples made to an extent not yet seen.

Saving faith must reside in the heart (Romans 10:9-10) and anything less than whole-hearted devotion to the cause of Christ may leave the heart devoid of faith regardless of the level of intellectual assent.

Earthly kingdoms have policies and laws and standards and those who transgress against them can expect adverse consequences. God's kingdom will also have standards. Those who receive pardon from the King should submit themselves to the standards of the Kingdom and not rebel. Pardons for those who continue in rebellion could easily be revoked.

God's kingdom is a supernatural kingdom and its citizens must experience the new birth brought about by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be expected to force its ways upon an unrepentant life not dedicated to holiness and righteousness.

Prayer: May God's Kingdom come and God's will be done on earth as is in heaven.

Those who have formerly been in rebellion to the Will of God need to repent and develop conformity to the Will of God as evidence of genuine, saving belief.

 2015/2/15 22:39Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [1Jo 3:7 NKJV]

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now [you are] light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. [Eph 5:6-8 NKJV] “Walk in newness of life.”

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. [1Co 6:9-11 NKJV]

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. [Gal 6:7-8 NKJV]

Each passage begins with "do not be deceived" and "let no one deceive you" - because many will try! Cheap grace, imputed righteousness, justification without regeneration are the earmarks of Big Church theology. I say "Big Church" because no movement ever got big, prosperous, popular and respectable by preaching the real gospel.


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Wayne Kraus

 2015/2/16 0:42Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Colin asked: "What is a carnal christian and how do they fit into the lordship message?"

I would say that to be 'carnal' or walking in the flesh (carnal = flesh) is not necessarily the same as wilful rebellious sin that does not want to submit to the Lordship of Christ. It is possible to have a heart that is submitted to Christ as Lord, but walk in the flesh at times in some areas of our lives, e.g. as outlined in Galatians 5. Also those mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 who he called carnal because of divisions / party spirit. Interestingly it is quite common for those in the IFB camp to consider all other denominations as wrong or inferior to themselves, thus making them 'carnal' or in the flesh.


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Dave

 2015/2/16 5:49Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I agree with Heydave’s last post.

The “Carnal Christian” doctrine is another term used to describe this easy-believism, cheap grace, non-Lordship message. It is based on what I’d contend to be a misinterpretation and misapplication of 1Cor.3:1-4. Here’s the passage:

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?”

“Free Gracers” say that that passage teaches clearly that one can be “carnal” and still saved, and by “carnal” they mean indulging in any type of sinful or fleshly behavior. I admit that Paul is not questioning the salvation of the Corinthians in that passage despite calling them “carnal”. But Paul is not saying that one can practice all types of sins and still be saved. That would contradict passages like 1Cor.6:9-10 and Gal.5:19-21 which declare that one cannot practice sin and inherit God’s kingdom. And it would contradict 1Cor.5 where the Lord, through Paul, commanded the Corinthians to excommunicate a man who was living in adultery with his father’s wife. That teaching also contradicts many other clear passages of Scripture which warn of false conversions and of not inheriting God’s kingdom due to sinful rebellion against God.

So what is Paul saying there in 1Cor.3? He is simply saying that by reason of them being sectarian or factious toward one another, the Corinthian believers were behaving in a carnal or fleshly manner. Paul was rebuking them for behaving that way toward one another. But that’s way different than him saying, “You can be a fornicator, murderer, thief, drunkard, etc. and still be saved as a “Carnal Christian.”

This is the thing. Whenever we as Christians commit any sins, whether sins of omission or commission in thought, word or deed, at that very moment we are behaving carnally or fleshly. Any sin is carnal or fleshly. And simply because we may fall into certain types of sinful behavior at any given moment it doesn’t mean we automatically lose our salvation. For example, let’s suppose we have a weak moment and are tempted and are caught in the sin of lust, maybe by looking at a billboard or something. Would that mean we lost our salvation and need to be born again, again? I don’t think so. But falling into those types of sins occasionally as believers is much different that running headlong into all types of sins, unchecked and unrepentant. If we are true believers we will experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will be repentant and desire to live a holy life pleasing to the Lord.

For an in-depth study on this issue of the Carnal Christian doctrine I’d recommend this sermon article by Al Martin:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/carnal-christian-by-albert-n-martin/


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Oracio

 2015/2/16 18:10Profile
back-to-acts
Member



Joined: 2011/5/12
Posts: 28
Texas

 Re:

To me the disagreement comes down to a lack of understanding of the difference and likeness of Salvation and Regeneration.

The latter part of Isaiah 43:13 says "when God acts, who can reverse it?"

Do we all agree that someone being born again is a work of God where He raises someone up from being dead spiritually and being alive in Christ?

So, some of you are saying that we as humans have more power than God to reverse that experience?

That we can one day wake up and say " I don't really feel like being a new creation today, I think I am going to go back to being dead." does that work?

I believe the problem is that we have combined salvation and regeneration into one big plate. You never read of Paul saying "to those of us being born again", but he does say "to those of us that are being SAVED" 1 Cor 1:18 .

If you are claiming that you have been born again and are not producing fruit, or have never produced fruit, then yes I would say you probably need to go check yourself. I do not agree with this cheap grace non sense of being born again and looking no different than you were before. That's non sense. You've been given a new heart with new desires etc.

But I know people right now that have been truly born again that are resisting God's salvation process in their life.

Salvation: Saved, Healed, Delivered, Rescued etc.

If you have been truly born again then yes you have Been Saved from the wrath of God and punishment of hell. But it doesn't mean that you are being saved right now does it? Maybe you have let an idol of t.v. to come into your life and has led you to start having lustful, worldly thoughts. Don't you think you need to be Saved from that? How do you obtain that salvation? Through repentance.

Regeneration is an experience, salvation is a process.

the word Saved has become this majestic word in most churches to where people walk around claiming "I have been saved!"

Hallelujah! That's awesome! How about today though? Is God saving you today from this world and from satan?

So I agree with the premise of OSAS, but only based upon God's work and His word. Not because you prayed some prayer.

Carnal christians that have fleshly desires and sins they have to fight and sometimes they fall prey to? Yes I agree with that translation. But I do not think he is talking about a continuosly sinful chrisitan when he speaks of those Corinthians being carnal.
I do not read Paul speaking anywhere of worldly christians, or dead christians. Just ones that have yet to crucify all of their carnality.


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Travis Cunningham

 2015/2/17 9:24Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

back-to-acts, I agree with all of what you said in essence. The only thing I'd point out is that your use of the word "salvation" there is also known and taught in the Word as the process of "sanctification". It's been said that WE WERE saved, ARE BEING saved, and WILL BE saved when we get to glory.


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Oracio

 2015/2/17 11:02Profile
back-to-acts
Member



Joined: 2011/5/12
Posts: 28
Texas

 Re:

Yes I agree with that. But there is also is a distinction in the words as well. But I wouldn't argue the point. I believe we are being sanctified ( being set apart) by being constantlty saved ( healed, rescued, delivered) from the world, flesh and the devil, through God's pattern of repentance, obedience, self denial etc.

But back to the point of this thread.

If you agree with what I said in essence, then do you believe that someone who has been genuinely born again can become un-saved? Which is the opposite of OSAS.

Another issue I see is ministers are trying to make converts instead of disciples. If we were truly focused on making disciples ( which could take a lot of time) then this debate would almost be non existent. Christ gave us a command to make disciples, not converts who will do everything that He commands of them. Which points out directly "lordship salvation" in my opinion. Unless we fall into the teaching that I believe is false, that you can be a christian and not be a disciple. Don't see that in scripture.


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Travis Cunningham

 2015/2/17 11:25Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Travis wrote: "Do we all agree that someone being born again is a work of God where He raises someone up from being dead spiritually and being alive in Christ?

So, some of you are saying that we as humans have more power than God to reverse that experience?

That we can one day wake up and say " I don't really feel like being a new creation today, I think I am going to go back to being dead." does that work?"
____________________________________________________________

The problem with this is it is using human reasoning to say we cannot forfeit eternal life once we have it. I have heard similar things like, "Your children don't stop being your children even if they disown you." Again using human reasoning to establish a doctrine. It's not a good comparison, because you could say that every human is in a way a child of God, in that God created them, but only those who choose to submit to His authority will have the rights and privilege of sons. If they afterward walk away from Him, then they loose that privilege. You see anyone can use the same examples to argue either way! we have to look at what scripture teaches in it's full revelation and not isolated text taken out to make a point.

We talk as if at regeneration something physical happens and equate that to not being able to be undone like a physical birth, but in fact our regeneration is spiritual and is based on us being joined to Christ. We also talk as if we have this eternal life independently from Christ, but apart from Him, we don't have any spiritual life. So if it is possible to separate from Christ, then it is possible to loose that spiritual life. The bible has too many warnings about continuing in faith and not turning back and the consequences of turning away to ignore the possibility of loosing the life we once had.

Just one example I'll give (there are many others) is Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Why is there no sacrifice for sins for those who sin wilfully? Because they reject the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore His sacrifice for their sins. That leaves them to face the consequence for their sins and the judgement will be 'guilty' and the punishment that follows. In the context of the surrounding text and in fact the whole book, I believe this is talking to true believers.

I know there are different views on OSAS and eternal security and I have respect for those who take a slightly different position that say that perseverance is necessary, but also guaranteed for true believers. I guess that is the only point of disagreement I have with Oracio, as I agree that perseverance is necessary, but not guaranteed. The typical OSAS view that Oracio put forward is a lot different to eternal security/perseverance position of the reformed people. It is this OSAS position that is dangerous and unbiblical.

I agree with the following you wrote.
"Another issue I see is ministers are trying to make converts instead of disciples. If we were truly focused on making disciples ( which could take a lot of time) then this debate would almost be non existent. Christ gave us a command to make disciples, not converts who will do everything that He commands of them. Which points out directly "lordship salvation" in my opinion. Unless we fall into the teaching that I believe is false, that you can be a christian and not be a disciple. Don't see that in scripture."


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Dave

 2015/2/17 11:59Profile





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