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wsbg
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Joined: 2004/11/13
Posts: 44
Earth

 Spiritual Warfare

Is it possible for one person to deceive another or hurt the other to such an extent that a man can ensure the condemnation of another? A rather dark question I know. That is can a person cause another to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

EDIT: After I posted this I have remembered the saying of "focus only on what's good, right, and holy." I am however interested at this moment in how much damage can be done during the last days and now; what does the church have to protect itself against currently? I'm trying to get an understanding of what the evil one and his can actually do.


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Jon Doe

 2005/4/27 20:12Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD READ THIS

There's a book by John Bevere called "The Bait Of Satan". I usually don't read comtempory writters but this book is an exception. It deals with Offenses. I highly recommend it, it deals with the last times. God Bless , Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/4/27 21:47Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Spiritual Warfare

Quote:
Is it possible for one person to deceive another or hurt the other to such an extent that a man can ensure the condemnation of another? A rather dark question I know. That is can a person cause another to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?



Strange, but your interesting question brought to my mind the African American Christian. Because I am so sensitive to offense and insult it boggles my mind to think that many of the Africans taken captive during the 400 years of western slave trade became believers in the gospel. Not only did they accept what some might have derided as the "white man's religion" but I believe they showed America what a rapturous faith in Christ looks like compared to mere theology. I think the African American church is proof of the Holy Spirit being real. No mere man could find love in his heart for the god of the people who who wrongfully enslaves others. Clearly Jesus became real to those blessed saints in a way that their caucasion owners would never know.

God has used the African American Church to repay America with kindness for her cruelty. In fact it was African American Christian friends who showed this "Irish American" how to witness door to door and on college campuses....and how to praise the Lord!

I'm not wanting to bring a wildly different issue into your thread...I just thought that here is an excellent example of how the Holy Spirit is not always impeded by our meanness or carelessness. I hope no one hears me saying that we can be insensitive or jerky! I'm just offering hope for those we think we might have scared away from the gospel by our wrong attitudes. Even an insult as ugly as racism can still be defeated by the love of God.

Blessings


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Mike Compton

 2005/4/28 3:36Profile
wsbg
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Joined: 2004/11/13
Posts: 44
Earth

 Re: Spiritual Warfare

I've added the book to my wishlist at Amazon. So when I find another book to add up to $40 (for free shipping) I will get it. Thank you for your suggestion.

Compton: Thanks for your comment. I have also found that with the help of the Holy Spirit I can forgive pretty much anything. This, not by my own righteousness though but by the grace of the Holy Spirit. However, what if a person could get another to offend the Holy Spirit in such a way that the Spirit would no longer strive with that poor soul. Ie. I understand that with the help of God anything is possible, but what when got no longer hears us.. An interesting story of yours; it's quite amazing.

To everyone else that is reading this post, please post your insight. I believe this a rather tough question to answer and would be interested in what you have to say about it.


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Jon Doe

 2005/4/28 20:09Profile









 Re: Spiritual Warfare

wsbg, I would like some clarification of your questions such as which of the men being hurt is the Christian or are they both Christians? And, what do you mean by 'blaspheme the Holy Spirit'?

Two scriptures come to mind. I think Mark spells it out most clearly, although once one has his definition, it is also elsewhere.

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.


1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do these help to clarify anything for you?

 2005/4/28 20:59
wsbg
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Joined: 2004/11/13
Posts: 44
Earth

 Re: Spiritual Warfare

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
wsbg, I would like some clarification of your questions such as which of the men being hurt is the Christian or are they both Christians?



> The person being tempted to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is a non-christian while the tempter is an anti-Christian

Quote:

And, what do you mean by 'blaspheme the Holy Spirit'?



> I mean to greatly verbally slander, state the want of separation from, and profane.

Quote:

Two scriptures come to mind. I think Mark spells it out most clearly, although once one has his definition, it is also elsewhere.

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.



> Now, would the tempted non-Christian be eternally condemned because he said "he hath an unclean spirit?"

Quote:

1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do these help to clarify anything for you?



> Yes, they do. Am I to understand that a test to see whether a person has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is whether that person can hold Him to be his Lord?




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Jon Doe

 2005/5/2 20:42Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 two things maybe 3

First---you have to note who Jesus was talking to---the Jews, secondly note the context. They were attributing the works of Christ to belezabub(sp????). Secondly must scholars believe that sin to be resisting the conviction of sin and the offer of forgiveness for sin. But that is a very difficult passage to understand and comprehend---the Mark passage that is. I believe an unsaved individual sins as part of thier nature, but at what point does God give up on them??? I don't think he ever does, but my seniment isn't backed by scripture. Bro. Daryl


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D.Miller

 2005/5/2 21:07Profile









 Re:

My understanding of the import of saying 'He has an unclean spirit' to Jesus - the Word made Flesh - is that it goes way beyond the kind of hostility He was able to tolerate. You have to remember that His rejection by the Jews was not a surprise to Him, but, He went to them because He was sent by the Father, that all prophecy be fulfilled. This makes it impossible for any ordinary human to 'judge' the state of anyone else's heart. Jesus will Judge as His Father shows Him, with complete impartiality, when the Day comes. Believers are called to to endure to the end without giving up their faith in Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Is it possible for one person to deceive another or hurt the other to such an extent that a man can ensure the condemnation of another?


In principle, no, unless they know what they are doing and still go ahead and do it. God is not in a hurry to condemn anyone, especially not since the work of His Son Jesus Christ to redeem the whole world. The situation of those being addressed at the start of Romans 2, is fairly extreme, yet Paul says the goodness of God leads them towards repentance. In context, this may take them from potential perdition to being saved, washed and sanctified. It is possible.

In Christ, all of history arrives at a single point in time. Before it, sin affected all the generations after Adam, with an increasing revelation of God limiting the damage closer and closer to the person who sinned, regardless of how the family leaders had behaved towards God. After Christ, the grace to accept salvation by faith in Him, is extended to each individual and [i]only[/i] each individual can accept or reject salvation on his (or her) own behalf.

Please do a search on the 'blaspheme' in the KJV if you want to check up who said what and to whom. This verse shows Jesus was accused of blasphemy for admitting Who He is.

[b]John 10:36[/b]
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The example of what happened to Him - betrayed to death by relatives - is the sort of thing any believer can expect, though many do not (expect this).

[b]John 11:49[/b]
And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, [b]he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation[/b]; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

At the crunch, these same religious leaders led the cry to crucify Jesus, saying 'His blood be on us and on our children'. Were they 'Christians'? I don't think so!

I would remind you that God has said 'Vengeance is Mine. I will repay' and there are other places where God says [b]He[/b] will repay to people what they have done to others - good for good, evil for evil - but Christians are to overcome evil with good.

[b]Romans 12:17[/b]
Recompense to no man evil for evil.

Quote:
Am I to understand that a test to see whether a person has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is whether that person can hold Him to be his Lord?


If I understand you correctly, you have not understood this Corinthian text. It implies that unless a person has received the Holy Spirit themselves, they are capable of calling Jesus accursed, but, those who speak by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost 'can say Jesus is the Lord'.

[i][b]Blasphemy[/b][/i] against the Holy Spirit, is when a person calls the Holy Spirit 'unclean'. There is no promise of forgiveness for this.

In the context of history, the Curse that mattered (with which God cursed Adam, Eve, the serpent and the earth (Genesis 3)) is the Curse which Christ became for mankind, that believers could be blessed with eternal life.

If I seem to have been rambling here, if you would, please clarify where you are in your hypothesis?

The soul-searching truth for a Christian is that he may have to suffer dreadful things for the Name of Jesus Christ. Filled with the Holy Spirit, no matter how daunting, this suffering is within his power, if he keeps the faith and endures to the end, which may mean physical death. The Church (the Body of Christ on earth) is not diminished by this propect.

 2005/5/2 22:08
wsbg
Member



Joined: 2004/11/13
Posts: 44
Earth

 Re: Spiritual Warfare

Quote:
>Is it possible for one person to deceive another or hurt the other to such an extent that a man can ensure the condemnation of another?



Quote:

>>In principle, no, unless they know what they are doing and still go ahead and do it.



Then, lets say I'm a punk teenage kid who's got issues with God. Can I simply say to my friends: "Guess what? I heard that if you blaspheme God's Holy Spirit you will never be forgiven and you'll go to hell for certain. It sounds kinda' fun doesn't it & I'm sure this would upset your parents to hear! You wanna try! I'll go first." Then they all take turns calling God's Holy Spirit unclean. Are they then all condemned?

Quote:

>>If I understand you correctly, you have not understood this Corinthian text. It implies that unless a person has received the Holy Spirit themselves, they are capable of calling Jesus accursed, but, those who speak by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost 'can say Jesus is the Lord'.



I understand this; it is clear. But if we know that without the Holy Spirit we can blaspheme Christ, and with the Holy Spirit we can not blaspheme Christ isn't it logical to conclude that if one 'can say Jesus is the Lord' they have proven in themselves that the Holy Spirit is upon them, thus that the Holy Spirit has not forsaken them, and that they have not blasphemed Him.

Quote:

>>[i][b]Blasphemy[/b][/i] against the Holy Spirit, is when a person calls the Holy Spirit 'unclean'. There is no promise of forgiveness for this.



So then, if someone can get another to say the simple words of "The Holy Spirit is unclean" they have ensured that that person will not be forgiven? This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Quote:

>>If I seem to have been rambling here, if you would, please clarify where you are in your hypothesis?



My hypothesis is this: That the "abomination that causes desolation" will be something that will get people to call the Holy Spirit unclean. Further, that anyone who can get another to call the Holy Spirit unclean has the power to damn them for eternity by their lack of forgiveness with God.

:-(


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Jon Doe

 2005/5/3 12:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My hypothesis is this: That the "abomination that causes desolation" will be something that will get people to call the Holy Spirit unclean. Further, that anyone who can get another to call the Holy Spirit unclean has the power to damn them for eternity by their lack of forgiveness with God.



My instant reaction to the rest your hypothesis, (based on the 'teen' dares), is, you seem to be reckoning without God, who knows the hearts. Simply 'saying' Jesus is Lord will have to ring true in His ears, for it to be conclusive proof of a person's integrity with Him. He will decide. He will divide the sheep from the goats.

I'd like to check something out with the mods before I post a link here. If I get the go ahead, I'll be back. The armour of God is worthy of deep consideration - Ephesians 6 - great food for thought and practice. Stand in the Lord!


 2005/5/3 14:32





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