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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

Dolfan--

In your view what would a Christians "repentance" or "confession" of their divorces and remarriages look like?

Let's keep it to divorces on improper grounds.

Let's even use a specific example: husband 1 and wife 1 get divorced due to irreconcileable differences. Husband 1 and wife 1 both remarry Christian spouses.

Husband 1 and wife 1 want to repent and confess their improper divorce (although they love their current spouse and have no desire to reconcile.

What would confession/repentance look like?

Just posing this question to flesh out what you are saying.


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Todd

 2015/1/27 14:29Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Todd, seems to me the question you are posing should be dealt with on another thread because it will get long and distract from the OP issue.

But I do wonder how Tim will deal with the issue once a homo couple comes to him and wants him to handle their divorce. I suspect the only way he could get out of it is to not handle divorce cases at all.

What say Tim?


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Sandra Miller

 2015/1/27 14:51Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

TMK and ginnyrose --- Y'all don't make it easy on anybody do you? :)

Okay, Ginnyrose to answer first your question. All I know is this. The State and the Lord have very different definitions of "marriage". Until the State calls them something different, unions licensed and sanctioned by the State that are called marriage impinge on the authority of God to say what marriage is. My first and only allegiance is to Him. So, I won't validate homosexual marriage by representing or advising in a homosexual divorce.

If the states would do "the right thing" -- as right as human government can get, which is not right but we'll use that word -- they would completely remove themselves from "marriage" and call unions licensed and sanctioned by the State by another name. Maybe everybody is, in the eyes of government, "civilly united" or some such. I don't care if they say people are bluetick hounded as long as they don't impinge on what God says marriage is. And, if they are concerned about 'whose' God and 'what' definition of God, they can avoid the whole controversy by being perfectly secular and calling unions "civil unions". That way the state can say my wife and I are in a "civil union" instead of a marriage. Suits me, and puts the onus on the church to lead people into what marriage is.

Would I represent homosexuals in a civil union dissolution? Yes, ma'am I would if they paid me. I've represented homosexuals in landlord tenant disputes and criminal cases, so the state's dissolution of a legally created contractual arrangement is no different. The matter would be purely for what it is -- a matter of the world. Unless they repent and get saved anyway, their status as united under law or disunited under law is irrelevant. We share the highways with them and none of us are going to hell for yielding the right of way to one of them; it isn't like we've shared communion with them and washed their feet by doing so.

Now, onto TMK's question. It is valid. Am I insisting that repentance means reconciliation of couple #1 as --- couple #1. No, not as you've outlined the hypothetical.

By the situation you've outlined, I think the answer is built into the question. They already repented and confessed their improper divorce. I might add that they should ask forgiveness for remarrying under these circumstances where no sexual sin by either spouse lead to the divorce. Given the bible's clear limitation of divorce to sexual immorality by one spouse as an opening to remarriage, the couple each ignored that limitation and did what they wanted instead, remarrying (even if to a Christian in both cases). Real sorrow about having gone farther than the Word says to go should sink in somewhere. A regret at having gone farther than the Word should move a true lover of Jesus to rely on His mercy for that sin; whereas, a failure to see that as regrettable and sinful could cheapen the bond of the remarriage in the eyes of the non-regretting remarried spouse.

So, as I understand Scripture, that's what it might look like in that instance. It would also include a liberal forgiveness for all wrongs. It might ideally include such forgiveness by one spouse that he/she approaches the other and says, "Because I wronged you and God by not loving you as He does, and because I now DO love you as He does by His grace to me that opens my eyes to Him in truth, I ask you to forgive me and whether you do or not, I forgive you of any hidden regret you may have but never be comfortable sharing. You have not wronged me as far as I am concerned, no matter what happened, and you are loved by Jesus." Something along those lines.

There are many instances where sin follows into a remarriage and it isn't as neat as this would be. You've kept it very simple, though and made it easier to answer.

Could a reconciliation of the originally divorced couple ever be proper in a case where both remarried? Many would say yes. My honest conviction and understanding of Scripture is "no". Deut. 24:1-4 and Jeremiah 3:1. Even 1 Cor. 7:10, 11 anticipates that if there is a reconciliation after divorce that no remarriage intervened the divorce and reconciliation.

I know a lady who was faithful to her husband more than maybe any of us would be. He divorced her for another woman, married that woman and was married to her for 10 years. The lady I know believed her remarriage would be adultery. She prayed for her "husband" to be saved and to be reconciled to her. After 10 years, he divorced wife #2 and went back to wife #1 and remarried her. Later, he committed adultery with a young woman of another race and they had an out of wedlock child together. The lady I know forgave him, accepted the child into HER home and helped raise the child. Husband later died. She be a door mat or maybe a pillar of faith. I think mostly the latter. But, if I apply Deut. 24:1-4 principally, I'm wrong. He died an unbeliever as far as I know.

Things get complicated. Mercy triumphs judgment in uncertain matters. Sometimes, what seems clear is not. Sin clouds even the simplest things. I pray that I'm right and not only sincere, but this is how I would answer the question, TMK.


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Tim

 2015/1/27 17:18Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5355
NC, USA

 Re:

I appreciate your answer and I am in agreement.

If the stats are right and about 50% of Christians are divorced (and probably remarried) it is a hot button issue for sure.


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Todd

 2015/1/27 17:33Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re:

I guess a good question might be, is God confined to scripture alone, as we are? We are confined to scripture, and we try our best to read and interrupt or understand it, so our minds are limited to scripture alone. I personally think God can do as he pleases "beyond scripture" God is above all things, beneath all things, outside of all things and inside of all things. God is above, but He’s not pushed up. He’s beneath, but He’s not pressed down. He’s outside, but He’s not excluded. He’s inside, but He’s not confined, God is above all things presiding, beneath all things sustaining, outside of all things embracing and inside of all things filling. That is the immanence of God. This is why we should not worry to much about things, God can still work miracles, and yes were supposed to obey man's laws, but God don't have to obey anyone, he could blink his eye and cause every Homosexual on earth to become heterosexuals in a moment. God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, He is all-powerful, all-present, and all-knowing. There is nothing the flesh has that's more powerful than Prayer, we should stay in Prayer, that God will send us a miracle and change the minds of our Government, back to the morals this country was built on, one nation under God.


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Mr. Bill

 2015/1/27 20:03Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 705
San Diego

 Re:

Awesome answer, Tim! Glad you are the lawyer and not me!


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Tom Cameron

 2015/1/27 22:14Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Interesting day. Weirdly so.

In the past 24 hours, the same sex marriage issue has dropped into my lap, sometimes out of the blue.

First, at lunch with my good friend, an unbeliever, yesterday. I'd mentioned to him, talking about news and stuff and not really giving it much thought about a deeper discussion with him, that the federal judge who ruled last week that Alabama's law on the matter was unconstitutional had refused to push her ruling's effective date back, making gay marriage legal in Alabama as of 2/9/15.

He asked why it hurt anyone for gays to marry. I got an opportunity to make the biblical case for him (actually, things I've posted here before -- http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=53485&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1 --) and to restate that hell awaits the disobedient to the gospel. Now, he respectfully disagreed, and I did with him, and we're friends anyway. Yet, I've been deliberate with him in the past in my appeals with the gospel and for him to believe on Christ and come to Him. He asked me what if my daughter turned out to be gay. And he didn't do it in a snarky way or anything -- he was curious how I would react to it. I said I'd love her and I would be devastated by it. I said, "You know, we teach her now. She listens. We talk. I am in her ear all the time. And, I pray for her all the time. It could still happen. But, I'd stay in her ear and on my knees if she came home one day and said, 'I'm gay.'" I said, "You and I didn't have to grow up with this being open and approved in our culture. She is and will. It is a real battle, and even churches are caving on it because they don't really know Jesus. But, I can tell you that I'd love my daughter, I'd remain close to her as I could, and I'd never quit telling her that nor the truth." He said, complimenting, "Well, I didn't think you'd be mean or anything. You've never struck me as the type." :) And, we went on to other things.

THEN, last night an 18 year old kid from church had posted on Facebook that he was against gay marriage. I don't do Facebook, but my wife does. She showed it to me this morning before leaving for work. I read the responses and it boiled down to "you're mean!" and "I support you, Paul. Stand for truth." Which, you know, is nice and all except Paul doesn't know WHY he believes it which was evident in his beaten-down, timid response (and, he's a timid guy anyway), "I won't judge you and you don't judge me." That was his defense. My wife responded in a way that encouraged him to get into the Word and pray. Then, she brought the thing to me and said, "He's been in this church (our local church) all of his life, and THIS is all he's got to stand against this with. That's pathetic." And, she was right.

So, I found the stuff I'd posted here (!) and copied into an email and edited it for him as just --- something --- to try and equip the guy with.

THEN, I was at the courthouse checking on some things. The court clerk was behind the counter giving some instructions to the employees about --- you guessed it --- gay divorces. The county next door already has one trying to be filed. He was telling them how to try and navigate through it with the court system software not being programmed to have two husbands or two wives in a divorce filing. I eavesdropped and continued what I was doing. Then, a moment later, two of the employees came up to me and said, "So. What are you gonna do? Are you going to do gay divorces?" Which stunned me because what I posted on here last week was not something they would've known.

I said to them what I've said here. No, I won't, because to do so acknowledges a homosexual marriage, and as a Christian who really believes the word of God, I won't acknowledge it or validate it by representing anyone in a divorce, and if they want to take my law license I'll sell hot dogs out of the back of a pickup truck if I have to.

One of them smiled and asked me that wonderful question -- why. So, standing in the middle of the circuit clerk's office, I got to explain why. :) And, I said, "These are the last days. You think about it. If Satan is going to mar the image of God in the world, he almost HAS to do this. He almost HAS to promote the destruction of biblical marriage in society. The homosexuals will not even accept calling all marriages -- heterosexual even -- "civil unions" and letting things be equal that way because they want the word "marriage" to apply to them because Satan aims to deface the image of God in the world. This is nothing more than a thumb in the eye to the church by Satan. This is way more than legal, this is spiritual."

And, they smiled and walked away.

So, I don't know where this is all going, but it has been quite a day on this front.


_________________
Tim

 2015/2/4 16:02Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Interesting post, Tim. Good thing you wrote this because I misunderstood your reply to my question I posted earlier.

I still think you would do better by NOT handling divorces at all. Laying aside the Biblical teachings about divorce - you and I will disagree on that - who benefits from divorce? Be practical: the children are hurt, there is pain all around except for the one cheating on the spouse. Oh, I know, the stories that appear to justify it...heard them all. There are no winners except for the lawyers that handle these cases, maybe?! Make ya mad? :-/. Listen, how you can defend the plaintiff in such cases?

Oh, well...too complex a question, I assume....don't want a lawyer to defend his position using legalese, boring us stiff...

Appreciate your posts, anyways. I know you are interested in serving the LORD. I hope you will not take this as an attack on your person or belief. We are all growing and are at different stages in our growth in our walk with the LORD.


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Sandra Miller

 2015/2/4 17:36Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:
Interesting post, Tim. Good thing you wrote this because I misunderstood your reply to my question I posted earlier.

I still think you would do better by NOT handling divorces at all. Laying aside the Biblical teachings about divorce - you and I will disagree on that - who benefits from divorce? Be practical: the children are hurt, there is pain all around except for the one cheating on the spouse. Oh, I know, the stories that appear to justify it...heard them all. There are no winners except for the lawyers that handle these cases, maybe?! Make ya mad? :-/. Listen, how you can defend the plaintiff in such cases?

Oh, well...too complex a question, I assume....don't want a lawyer to defend his position using legalese, boring us stiff...

Appreciate your posts, anyways. I know you are interested in serving the LORD. I hope you will not take this as an attack on your person or belief. We are all growing and are at different stages in our growth in our walk with the LORD.



Ginnyrose,

No offense taken. I have wrestled with circumstances in some cases. I will tell you, too, that many times--most?--the spouses I tend to represent are either so hard at each other's throats that if they do have kids together the kids are not in the line of fire with the parents apart, OR one parent has already so distanced themselves from the other parent and the kids that the divorce is only a piece of paper formalizing what has been going on for a long time already, OR the child/children are not the kids of both parties and one or both of the parties are just living like H E double hockey sticks.

It is very unusual to have a couple with kids who are just broken and breaking apart. Those cases are so much harder to wrap your head around. They are also he ones where I work harder to put the spouse who sees me in touch with a Christian marriage counselor, and there is a very good one locally.

Most of the time, though, what I get are very young people who married quickly, one of them bolts, they drag feet on divorcing hoping the other one goes first, they have no kids and no assets, and they have both moved onto other sleeping buddies.

I do very little contested divorce work. Most of mine is uncontested and I like it because it is quick, little drama, and I get paid a lot quicker. Just being honest.

I think we probably are closer than you think on agreeing about biblical divorce. But, nonetheless, I don't justify it. I do not enjoy it. But, the ones that I personally see are not the ones where kids are usually hurt in the divorce. I am not softening anything, but only telling you what my work usually is. There are exceptions, to be sure, but thankfully uncommon in my own practice.


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Tim

 2015/2/4 20:04Profile









 Re:

Tim, I really enjoyed your post on 2015/2/4 14:02. You shed a lot of light into your situation and what you are wrestling with.

I'm certain I disagree with most here about gay marriages, I think the world can do what the world wants to do, I'm all for it (freedom of choice, and that choice of being unified sexually/lifestyle with another of same sex). Heck, I will even vote that way.

But aside from my personal view, I have a personal question for you Tim.

If obedience to the Lord looks like NOT doing gay divorces. What will your next profession be? Or are you able to change the kind of law practice you have?

I have a lot of family members in the legal field, most deal with personal injury and some corporate legal stuff. All I know is their degree in law was tremendously expensive plus their lifestyles are fairly lavish, compared to the common man. With my understanding of typical finances, I find it very difficult for them to change mid-career.

How will you deal change because it's inevitable (imho)? Will you be able to change you emphasis/practice? How long will that take? If you changed careers, how will you manage that?

I'm fairly curious now.

 2015/2/5 0:30





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