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DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

'Unbelief' could be the problem?

Hmmm, has the medical community hijacked this as a result?

A few doctors who dealt with the ebola virus came back to the U.S. for treatment. These doctors were touted as Christians. Now, the fact that they were flown here for treatment could tell us that they had unbelief that God would heal them. The scenario would seem to present itself as taking away faith in God's healing for faith in the medicine of man to heal man of ebola. What do you think?

I am being critical here because this could be a serious situation and if God doesn't heal because of our unbelief then we have serious issues with our faith.


_________________
John

 2014/11/21 16:55Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1432


 Re:

Hi Deadn,
Its a question that has been too the front of my mind for a few months now.I even see christians who I see as having way more faith than me but still no healings.I fully believe that Christ heals today but we seem to be a problem which I have no clue why.It makes us look like we are not the real deal...

Is their anyone out there that has a testimony of a non hidden instantaneous miracle like recieving hearing or sight etc??So we can cheer ourselves up in Christ
Yours Staff

 2014/11/21 17:40Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

DEADn quoted:

"Now, the fact that they were flown here for treatment could tell us that they had unbelief that God would heal them. The scenario would seem to present itself as taking away faith in God's healing for faith in the medicine of man to heal man of ebola."

When God moved the heart of the early church to help out their fellow brothers in Jerusalem, was it any less of a miracle or work of God? I mean I guess He could have just showered money down from heaven to them right? When Paul instructed Timothy to take a little wine for his recurrent stomach ailment was it any less of the grace of God that it would actually be effective in doing so? Couldn't God have just healed Timothy through prayer? When God raised up archetypes of Christ throughout scripture (Moses, Judges, etc.) to bring salvation to Israel, was it any less of the hand of God? Couldn't God just have wiped out all of Israel's enemies all at once by the snap of a finger? Why even go through the trouble of having them even go out into battle in the first place? If I were to use the same reasoning that is presented here, and an act of God has to invariably be "miraculous", then one would have to conclude that the examples I have given were not as supernatural or full of the grace of God as say manna falling from heaven, etc. which I would say is a misnomer. Who created the laws of the universe? Who gives man ability and insight and wisdom? Who allows a medication to be effective for one and not another? In whom do we have our breath and life and being? Is it any less in accordance with faith to believe that God can heal me through the hand of a physician as from the prayers from a healing minister? Who are we to judge hearts and claim to know what is in the mind of people when they go to God given medical people and institutions for care? Where did we get this erroneous and manmade idea that a bonafide healing from God has to necessarily come from unexplainable sources? Whether I eat or drink, or go to visit a doctor, I do it in faith and acknowledgment in whose hand my life rests because ALL good and perfect gifts come from the Lord.


_________________
Will

 2014/11/21 18:11Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3523
Louisiana

 Re: Healing and the lack thereof

Jesus said on several occasions where he
healed the sick: "be it done unto you
according to your faith." Healing is in
the Atonement, and healing must be
appropriated by faith.

Once we are convinced by the scriptures
that just as Jesus bore our sins, he also
bore our sicknesses and diseases, we will
no longer pray "if it be thy will", but we will
know that it is God's will, and pray with faith
and confidence.


_________________
Mike

 2014/11/21 18:43Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
When God moved the heart of the early church to help out their fellow brothers in Jerusalem, was it any less of a miracle or work of God? I mean I guess He could have just showered money down from heaven to them right? When Paul instructed Timothy to take a little wine for his recurrent stomach ailment was it any less of the grace of God that it would actually be effective in doing so? Couldn't God have just healed Timothy through prayer? When God raised up archetypes of Christ throughout scripture (Moses, Judges, etc.) to bring salvation to Israel, was it any less of the hand of God? Couldn't God just have wiped out all of Israel's enemies all at once by the snap of a finger? Why even go through the trouble of having them even go out into battle in the first place? If I were to use the same reasoning that is presented here, and an act of God has to invariably be "miraculous", then one would have to conclude that the examples I have given were not as supernatural or full of the grace of God as say manna falling from heaven, etc. which I would say is a misnomer. Who created the laws of the universe? Who gives man ability and insight and wisdom? Who allows a medication to be effective for one and not another? In whom do we have our breath and life and being? Is it any less in accordance with faith to believe that God can heal me through the hand of a physician as from the prayers from a healing minister? Who are we to judge hearts and claim to know what is in the mind of people when they go to God given medical people and institutions for care? Where did we get this erroneous and manmade idea that a bonafide healing from God has to necessarily come from unexplainable sources? Whether I eat or drink, or go to visit a doctor, I do it in faith and acknowledgment in whose hand my life rests because ALL good and perfect gifts come from the Lord.


Amen! I was going to post something along those lines but could not quite put it into words like you have done here brother Will.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/11/21 18:57Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1432


 Re:

Hi Abide,
On other occasions he didnt,he just healed
Yours Staff

 2014/11/21 18:58Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2022


 Re: Healing and the Scriptures/Miraculous Healing


Two books I'd highly recommend on this subject are:

1)Healing and The Scriptures by D. Martyn Lloyd Jones
Published by Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1988, 192 pp.

Ed Payne, M.D. in his review of this book writes,

"This book is a jewel! It is written by a man who is quite
familiar with both medicine and theology. Dr. D. Martyn
Lloyd- Jones was trained as a physician, but early in his
career answered (what was for him) the higher call of
preaching the Word of God. He continued, however,
his interest in medicine with regular reading of the
medical literature."

"The chapter, "The Supernatural in Medicine," is one of
the best treatises anywhere on the interface of
miraculous, supernatural, and medical healing. He
covers false claims of miracles, the probable cases of
true miraculous healing, his understanding of the Biblical
principles for modern times, the reality of
psychosomatic and psychophysiologic disease, the gift
of "healings" (I Cor. 12:9), and the so-called "prayer of
faith" that is supposed to guarantee healing. The book is
worth its price for this chapter alone."

"I highly recommend this book. It is a must for all who
are seriously evaluating the practice of medicine from a
Biblical perspective. It is a rare book that has so much
theological substance on medical issues. While I do not
agree with Dr. Lloyd-Jones at every point and do not
think that he has applied needed Biblical principles at
some points, I have deep respect for his theology and
insights. I do not readily cast our disagreements aside,
but use them in the hope that God will continue to refine
us all in our understanding and application of His truth."

Dr. Payne is Associate Professor of Family Medicine, Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, Ga.


One reader of this book writes,

"Book was fascinating and excellent. I'd recommend this for any Christian with a serious mind toward healing."

2)"Miraculous Healing," Why Does God Heal Some and Not Others? by Henry W. Frost, first published in 1931, 128 pp.

Henry W. Frost,a Canadian,examines the question of why God heals some and not others.

Why does God heal some people, and not others? This question has been the subject of a great deal of heart-searching throughout history. Henry Frost's book has been a touchstone of authority on the issue of miraculous healing since its initial publication in 1931. Henry Frost was the first National Director of the China Inland Mission in North America, and a friend of Hudson Taylor.

Of this book D. Martyn Lloyd Jones writes,

"Ever since I first read it,I have felt that it is easily and incomparably the best book I have ever read on this subject. It is the book,therefore,which I have always recommended to those who have been anxious for help on this matter."

One reader of the book wrote,

"This double-edged sword of Scripture and personal experience cuts through thickets of error and misconception to present one of the clearest discussions about miraculous healing of which I know"

This book is available to read online at the following link:

http://www.the-highway.com/healing_TOC.html

 2014/11/21 20:00Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5403
NC, USA

 Re:

Mike wrote:
"Jesus said on several occasions where he
healed the sick: "be it done unto you
according to your faith." Healing is in
the Atonement, and healing must be
appropriated by faith.

Once we are convinced by the scriptures
that just as Jesus bore our sins, he also
bore our sicknesses and diseases, we will
no longer pray "if it be thy will", but we will
know that it is God's will, and pray with faith
and confidence."
__________

Though some Christians teach that God does not ever want us to endure sickness, no biblically informed person would argue that God does not wish for any Christians to endure other kinds of trials, like persecutions, martyrdom, etc.—which can often be much more painful and devastating than many sicknesses would be. Jesus' conversation with Peter at the end of John's Gospel gives the clear impression that Peter's eventual martyrdom (in contrast to the prospect of John never dying) was a matter entirely of God's will for those two men, respectively (John 21:23). It seems clear that the same God represented in the story of the prodigal son actually does lead his children through painful (and even deadly) experiences. What is there about that story (or any other biblical teaching about God) that would represent, as consistent with the character of God, the allowance in His childrens' lives every form of excruciation and death, except for those forms that involve microbes or physical injuries?

Consider the following list of trials that godly people have had to endure—some of them qualifying as "sickness;" some of them not in any sense "sickness;" and some of them "borderline" between the two. Consider the difficulty in deciding between those on the list that qualify as things a loving Father might choose as instruments of instruction, testing and improvement of His children—and which things would totally be unacceptable:

*Long-term incarceration in a disease-infested third-world prison
*A really ugly nose, a cleft palate or other disfiguring and unattractive natural features
*Dismemberment or blindness resulting from torture by interrogators
*Lung cancer from doing missionary work in highly polluted regions of China
*Loss of reputation due to slander
*Death by firing squad (involving organ damage and blood loss from bullet wounds)
*Malaria from mosquito bite
*Accidental or malignant decapitation
*Loss of marriage due to spouse's adultery
*Stubborn teenage acne
*Infection from wounds received during torture
*Starvation due to persecution
*Automobile accident resulting in internal injuries
*Diabetes
*Leprosy (or ebola)contracted while serving lepers or ebola victims
*Loss of home and possessions due to natural disaster
*Broken bones from stoning
*Death in one's sleep by failed 90-year-old organs
*Lung failure from smoke inhalation while burning at the stake
*Food poisoning from contaminated food
*Pneumonia from exposure after shipwreck
*Getting mugged and beat up by street thugs
*Downs syndrome
*Albinism
*Paralysis from spinal fracture
*Bankruptcy resulting from employee embezzlement

If one wishes to say that physical illness can not be included among the trials that God might wish to use in the believer's life—I would be interested in knowing which of the above list are and which are not consistent with the doctrine of God's goodness and love to His children. How many of them fall under the moniker of "sickness" (i.e., how about fractures, starvation and organ failure)? I would also like to know in what sense the "kosher" trials differ from those that God would never choose to allow in the life of a believer—and why He would permit the ones He permits and would forbid the ones He would forbid. From where I sit, prior to hearing this explanation, the difference seems entirely arbitrary.


_________________
Todd

 2014/11/21 21:06Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Perfect physical health is indeed guaranteed in the atonement, the same as immortality and a glorified body are guaranteed in the atonement and will be fully realized in eternity. I think a careful look at this verse should put an end to the idea that physical healing is guaranteed in this life for the believer:

"No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities."-1Timothy 5:23

Paul clearly says there that Timothy had frequent infirmities, frequent physical ailments or illnesses. If healing is guaranteed in the atonement in this life through faith, why didn't Paul instruct Timothy to have more faith, or to get rid of any sin that might have hindered his healing, or to repent of his lack of faith? No, Paul instructed Timothy to take a little wine for medicinal purposes for his frequent illnesses.

Paul begged God three times to remove a thorn in his flesh and God did not remove it but instead told Paul He would give him the strength to endure it (2 Cor. 12:7-10). I know it's debatable as to what exactly that thorn in the flesh was but the same principle or truth applies nonetheless. The truth is that it is not always God's will to remove thorns in our flesh, whether they be physical illnesses or any other kinds of suffering. What God does guarantee is that His grace is sufficient to see us through all manner of suffering in this life if those sufferings are not immediately removed from us.

Yes, we can and should pray for healing and deliverance but if it doesn't come as we'd like it to come we shouldn't lose heart. God is still on the throne. He knows what He is doing and is working all things together for our good and His glory. We should be thankful that God promises to see us through any form of suffering by His all-sufficient grace. We can praise Him in the storm. He is still worthy no matter what we face in this life.

The idea of healing being guaranteed in this life is a form of prosperity teaching imo. Instead of the health and wealth prosperity message it's just the health prosperity message, the prosperity of the body.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/11/21 22:55Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

TMK, excellent post!
Oracio, I absolutely agree with the points you made.

If healing was in the atonement in the sense that we can have it now by faith, then (a) we would never get sick and die, or (b) if when we got sick it is possible to always be healead and therefore never die. I don't see either of these two have ever occured.
The healing prosperity message is just man's desire to live forever in this life and not taste death. It is what drives most of mankind who have no hope for resurection and eternity.

Coming back to the original question. I think there is a big difference in scripture in praying (asking) God for healing and a believer actually doing the healing beacause they have that gift. We don't see much today of the latter, which us what the apostles did.


_________________
Dave

 2014/11/22 3:04Profile





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