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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Just War - WWJD

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

In terms of who this applied to, it was to those who lived prior to 70 AD. And Jesus forewarned them to have a plan...




See this is your opinion, not scriptural. We cannot separate any scripture from saying it is applicable only to those whom he addresses. Then Sermon on the Mount is applicable only to Jews, Letter of Romans is applicable only to Romans (oops then all our verses of justification is applicable only to Romans!).

As far as I know neither Sermon Index nor the speakers here support your argument of separating verses out of Bible and saying they are not applicable to us. Your comment is better ignored!!!


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Sreeram

 2014/11/25 22:22Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sree wrote:

"See this is your opinion, not scriptural."


Within this section of Scripture we find this verse which speaks to the time in which Jesus is pointing to.

Luk 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


With that said, as you point out the precept underlying what Jesus is teaching is for all generations. Those who are His will hear His voice in the time of distress and persecution. He will give us the words to condemn the religious and civil leaders of our day.

The question is will we stand before the leaders in this country and tell them what Jesus has to say to them in the time of persecution? Will men and women stand against evil?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/11/26 6:57Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

Within this section of Scripture we find this verse which speaks to the time in which Jesus is pointing to.

Luk 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.




As you have quoted, there are certain events that Jesus has said has happened in 70AD, but not all of them. I do not do a detailed study myself! My answer is I am not sure. Generally I am very sceptical when someone points out that the events of end time as said by Jesus have already happened. That is why I have posted little harshly against your post. Forgive me if It has hurt you. In recent times I have not been posting in good spirit.

Let us agree together with what we both agree, as you have quoted below.
Quote:

With that said, as you point out the precept underlying what Jesus is teaching is for all generations.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/26 8:35Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sree wrote:

"As you have quoted, there are certain events that Jesus has said has happened in 70AD, but not all of them."


Yes this is also true. There are minor and major fulfillments of prophesy in Scripture. There are reoccurring works of God in various generations.

Jesus often taught His disciples to be aware of the times in which they lived. He enables every generation to recognize the works of the unrighteous and the righteous. So when we see the religious and civil leaders leading the present generation into deception we know that times of judgement will be at hand.


So...

For some Jesus gives this instruction...

Luk 21:21
“Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.


Sree, it is often that the Scriptures cause us discomfort and often this discomfort is shared amongst the church. I understand where you are coming from. No offense taken.





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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/11/26 9:50Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Brother Dean Taylor,
Thank you for putting up that debate on here. It was good to watch and hear. I think that there were a lot of good points made on either side. I would say you and David made some very strong points against a just war, but the other two made some very strong points against a general non resistance postion.

In regard to the non resistance points, there was a principle that came up that was not developed that I thought was very important. It was that you would agree that in the family the parents have authority to discipline and punish their children using physical force if neccesary to restrain evil. This would be because parents are the legitimate authority in the family. However you don't agree that the government agencies shoukd use physical force to punish or prevent evil, even though they are the legitimate authority over society. This seems a huge contradiction to me.

One other issue was mentioned, which was the example of Cornelius being a Centurion whom God showed favour to, despite beinga Centurion. Your answer on this was to say that God may have shown favour to him, but we don't know that he continued to be a Roman soldier. The point however being missed here (and was not mentioned) is that God said Cornelius was a 'just man' and God took note of his alms and prayers BEFORE he heard or responded to the gospel, while he was an active Centurion soldier. It would appear his being a soldier had no bearing on his standing before God.

Anyway, a great debate and I appreciate your heart on this subject.


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Dave

 2014/11/26 13:36Profile









 Re:

As we discuss 'just war', I'd like to state that Jesus wants to save these people from their sin. He wants repentance. He'd rather them to turn from their ways (Ez. 33:11).

I think something relevant to the discussion is something Pope Francis just said, "I never count anything as lost. Never. Never close the door. It's difficult, you could say almost impossible, but the door is always open".

I feel it's God's heart for these people to change their ways. The 'enemy' aren't so lost that we (as a nation, society, or individuals) must resolve to end their life. Instead, we must demonstrate God's radical love to them and petition that God changes their hearts and minds.

Source: http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-says-door-of-dialogue-with-isis-should-never-close-warns-fighting-terrorism-leads-to-deaths-of-innocents-130277/

 2014/11/26 14:22
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

LoveMeekHope writes:

"The 'enemy' aren't so lost that we (as a nation, society, or individuals) must resolve to end their life. Instead, we must demonstrate God's radical love to them and petition that God changes their hearts and minds."


What of the victims which the enemy kill, do they deserve a chance?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2014/11/26 21:35Profile
DeanTaylor
Member



Joined: 2005/3/5
Posts: 7
Ephrata PA

 Re:

Hey thanks for watching the debate. Also thank you for your very thoughtful reply. There were a lot of points that we wished we had more time to develop. Those two hours went way too fast. You were right that the “other side” made some good arguments against general nonresistance. They came ready to debate a typical “liberal-pacifist” position.

David and I also reject the liberal “pacifist” position. I feel that the “liberal” position has done a lot of damage to the biblical position. Liberal pacifists often explain away the wars in the Old Testament and even reject the coming judgment of the lost.

David and I tried to represent more of an early church (pre-Nicene) position. However, it was difficult to say everything you wanted to say in the short amount of time. If you are interested I wrote a book that discusses many of these points. It is called, “A Change of Allegiance.” You can get it on Amazon or you could purchase it from Scrollpublishing.com

Anyway…again thanks so much for watching!

What if Jesus really meant every word He said?
Dean


_________________
Dean Taylor

 2014/11/26 21:47Profile









 Re:

"What of the victims which the enemy kill, do they deserve a chance?"

We are commanded to love everyone. We aren't to be like Jonah but allow everyone a chance to return to the Living/Warrior God.

It sucks that there are victims of man-made wars but we aren't to fight sword with sword. We are to fight them with words of the living God, which is our true and only sword. To the victims, we could rescue them from hostile areas, we could shield them like Rahab did with the spies, there are many non-violent ways to demonstrate love to both the 'enemy' and the victims of war(s).

BTW, Brother Dean, I watched your debate. I feel you could've responded to one of the gentlemen (who asked you what about hiding the Jews during the Nazi's regimen) you could've spoken of Rahab LYING to others to hide the spies. Yes, she lied. But, she is honored by God in the NT, for her faith.

 2014/11/26 21:59
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Dean Taylor offered a youtube video of a debate which he participated in. And I found that those who argue for a just war doctrine spend too much time reading what other men think than what Scripture teaches. With that said, I still do not agree with the doctrine of Nonresistance in it's entirety.

Dean Taylor asks this question of the just war panel, do the entirety of Scripture teach that a just war doctrine exists?


First, I have not read any of the writings of the church fathers, I know nothing of Luther, Augustine, Origen, and whoever else was mentioned in the debate. So I do not know what these men mean when one speaks of a just war doctrine.

My first question is, if Scripture testifies that God delivered the enemy into the hands of His elect, does this then qualify the aggression of the elect as being justified?


The following Scripture is a testimony of this precept...


Gen 14:13

And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Gen 14:14
And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

Gen 14:15
And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.



In this section of Scripture we find that Abram formed an alliance with two other families and had trained 318 servants from his own and traveled over 150 miles to save his brother's son Lot and his family.

Then we have this testimony in Scripture...


Gen 14:18

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Gen 14:19
And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen 14:20
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.


We find that Melchizedek, the priest of the most high God, tells Abram that God "hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand."


Can one say that if God enabled Abram to save Lot and his family, that Abram was justified in what he did?




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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/11/26 22:00Profile





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