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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Whatever happened to the Power of GOD?

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KPYee
Member



Joined: 2012/3/12
Posts: 87


 Re:

The claim that the miraculous powers of the magnitude and quality as performed by Christ and the apostles no longer subsist is based on scriptures not on experience. My statement that "The very fact that you are asking the same question is proof that such great powers no longer prevail. If its prevalent will we be asking about this ?" was mainly to point out that even on an experiential level there is simply no corroboration for the claim that the miraculous feats of the magnitude and quality of the apostles subsist.
The miraculous healing we see today are more of the category of James 5:13-16.

I dont want to get into a tedious theological debate over here . However if any of you are keen to pursue this matter further I would suggest you go to this site and listen to this issue debated a few times there :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

 2014/11/6 5:08Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re: Whatever happened to the Power of GOD?

Quote:
Jesus raised the dead. He healed people and he cast demons out. Paul was even bitten by a snake and it didn't kill him. If someone claims to be a soldout hardcore Christian should they not be doing these same things? What happened to this power?


Perhaps this would go some way to answering your question...

You might want to check out John Sung - an influential Chinese evangelist (1901-1944), with signs and wonders following his ministry.

1. http://amzn.to/1EkUgnN - a biography written by Leslie Lyall, which gives an overview of his life

2. http://amzn.to/1GsDsgH - a compilation of excerpts from John Sung's diaries

I found his diaries valuable in illuminating certain truths of the New Testament, including the role of faith (Matt 13:58). I would recommend reading the biography first before embarking on his diaries.

 2014/11/6 5:38Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Quote:
The claim that the miraculous powers of the magnitude and quality as performed by Christ and the apostles no longer subsist is based on scriptures not on experience.


Hi KPYee - you haven't provided any Scriptural backing for your cessationist claims, and is contrary to the explicit and unconditional statements of Jesus about his followers (c.f. DEADn's post). I know of people who have been healed and have healed the blind.

 2014/11/6 5:42Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

even raise dead , david hogan seems to up there with wiggels worth john g lake,...

dr michael brown had david hogan preach a serious of message call raised from the dead ,phenominal testamony of apastolic power brown obviously recieved hogan as agreat man of god tho some reject hogan as a hoax

watch here hope i dont get in trouble here by greg ,being that dr brown excepts hogan ,it might be worth watching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUFAikPXLg

 2014/11/6 5:53Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Andrew wrote:

"I just think this is a very important topic that is almost ignored by the majority of the church. On the other hand there is a segment of the church that I think abuses and makes a mockery of these things. I think what is needed is a real demonstration of the power of God - without all the craziness."

Very true on both points. How many of us actually EXPECT something miraculous to happen, even if we believe that miracles still happen? I think we are very lazy when it comes to expecting great things from God, either because we are in a church that does not believe God still does great things, or because we ourselves simply don't really believe.


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Todd

 2014/11/6 6:14Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

The other thing we sometimes overlook and though it may seem like it, the Bible is not chock full of miracles. The are scattered over hundreds of years, and centered on the ministry of certain individuals (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, some of the apostles). Jesus ministered for around 3 years but the Bible documents only 30 days or so. Onlyh a few of the apostles worked a wonder.

I am not saying this to downplay the miraculous because I do believe that God still works in a BIG way. But sometimes we think there is a miracle around every corner in scripture and there really isn't.

Maybe that's because there weren't as many believers then as there are now, so let's get cracking :)


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Todd

 2014/11/6 6:21Profile
KPYee
Member



Joined: 2012/3/12
Posts: 87


 Re:

Hi Yuehan ..Please go to the website I pointed out and listen to the debates on this issue . Here is the link again :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

2) John Sung healing cant be equated with of Christ and the Apostles . His healing was contingent on confession and full repentance of sins . It falls more in the category of James 5:13-18

3) I am not a strict cessationist.I believe healing under the protocol of James 5: 13-18 continue to subsist . But they are not equivalent to that of the Apostles & Christ

 2014/11/6 6:22Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1395
Lakeland FL

 Re:

One thing I think that may need to happen in this post as well is something I have been trying to practice more and more and that is using the scripture to answer my points when I can in order to stay parallel to scripture. I would think scripture would answer this question yet even that interpretation can vary. Sometimes I wonder if scripture in combination of 'authentic' experience should prove each other to be true.

I really do think this is an important thing because nowadays people don't even see Christians as they should be and I often wonder if that is a reason why the Power of God seems to be muted in America in a general sense. Outside of preaching and the religious scam artists is society seeing any genuiness of God amongst Christians?


one other thought........... I have always wondered if the power of God has ever done something in any praise and worship concert to any soul other then simply instilling joy in the soul. I have often wondered why more revivals would not break out in hearts with those who go to praise and worship concert. After all, it is designed to be solely focused on God. This could also be added this conversation. I also realize we need to be aware that false signs and wonders exist and an evil generation wants to seek after those things as well. A natural earthly trap of the sinful soul.


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John

 2014/11/6 7:38Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, your explanation of the "greater works" is a pretty typical response to this verse. To be honest it seems more like a dismissal and explaining away Jesus' words than really dealing with the enormity of what He said. Jesus never said we would do a different kind of works. So we have to look at the kind of works He did and expect to see them "greater."



Hello amranger, it is the typical response for a good reason, it is not an explaining away but rather an acknowledgement of the great power of God to draw men to Christ through weak earthen vessels and to transform them into His image.

How could "greater works" possibly refer to miracles, how could a greater miracle than raising a man from 4 days in the grave be performed? Did the Apostles do greater miraculous works than that? No. So we either have to call Christ a liar or understand His words here to mean something more than just miraculous outward works.

In Christ,


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2014/11/6 8:34Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Quote:
KPYee: Hi Yuehan ..Please go to the website I pointed out and listen to the debates on this issue . Here is the link again :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

2) John Sung healing cant be equated with of Christ and the Apostles . His healing was contingent on confession and full repentance of sins . It falls more in the category of James 5:13-18

3) I am not a strict cessationist.I believe healing under the protocol of James 5: 13-18 continue to subsist . But they are not equivalent to that of the Apostles & Christ


John Sung's ministry was accompanied by a variety of signs and wonders, including raising people from the dead - quite like the Book of Acts. I would recommend reading both the biography and his diaries if you intend to find out more.

It's a mischaracterization to claim that God's workings today "cannot be equated with that of Christ and the Apostles". The Bible never draws such a dichotomy, for:

(i) we share the same Holy Spirit as Christ and the apostles, and God gives His Spirit without measure (John 3:34)

(ii) it is ultimately Jesus Christ who lives in us and works through us!

 2014/11/6 10:31Profile





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