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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "pastoress"???

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 Re:

Indeed God will help us on this issue, it belongs to one of such themes that have been twisted by the prevalent culture, but sincere men will always maintain the ancient land mark. [although as in every teaching we must be careful of extreme, otherwise we can as well say that women should not post on this forum, for that is like "not keeping silent in the church"- of course i understand church to mean any community of believers including this one]. Many times i try avoiding issues like this, but right now i'm studying 1TIM, and i can't just escape this. If i escape chapter 2, chapter 3 is there, in which there's no mention of this our modern practise of "deaconess". It appears to me that in scripture the man only is ordained, and the woman is simply the wife of the deacon. Whatever work she would do, she does it under the capacity of "the wife of the deacon" and not as an ordained deaconess or pastoress or teacher in her own right. I think this is simple for any honest man to understand.

 2014/10/24 10:28









 Re:

If indeed the gifts mentioned in Eph.4 can be separated from leadership responsibility, then this puzzle had been solve as Yuehan commented. But unlike the charismatic gifts mentioned in 1cor.12, the gift here are ministry or leadership gifts. They are more properly to be regarded as church offices ordained or given to the church as a cooperate entity, so that it's individual members are built to the point where they can carry out the work of the ministry- which includes the manifestation of such charismatic gifts as mentioned in 1cor.12. Of course we can see that women are permitted to manifest such gifts, in 1cor.11 we see that they could prophesy with their head covered. We were also told Philip had daughters which did prophesy, not that they were prophets as this will mean assuming such authority that is unimaginable for ladies still under there father's authority.

 2014/10/24 11:03









 Re:

If indeed the gifts mentioned in Eph.4 can be separated from leadership responsibility, then this puzzle had been solve as Yuehan commented. But unlike the charismatic gifts mentioned in 1cor.12, the gift here are ministry or leadership gifts. They are more properly to be regarded as church offices ordained or given to the church as a cooperate entity, so that it's individual members are built to the point where they can carry out the work of the ministry- which includes the manifestation of such charismatic gifts as mentioned in 1cor.12. Of course we can see that women are permitted to manifest such gifts, in 1cor.11 we see that they could prophesy with their head covered. We were also told Philip had daughters which did prophesy, not that they were prophets as this will mean assuming such authority that is unimaginable for ladies still under there father's authority.

 2014/10/24 11:11
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

When it comes to such discussions, I believe it's always important to remember that the priesthood of believers (spoken of in 1 Peter 2:5) is composed of *both* men and women.

Women - as with all believers - are:
(i) full-time ministers (Ephesians 4:12)
(ii) have Christ who dwells fully in them (Colossians 1:27)
(iii) have anointing from God (1 John 2:20), and God gives His Spirit to them without measure (John 3:34)

From the above, it should be clear that ministry is not synonymous with having leadership in a congregation (echoing KingJimmy). Every woman is a minister and a priest unto God. And her ministry is not just confined to arranging the flowers and doing the cooking (as much as these are legitimate and respectable ministerial avenues).

Rather than debating what women cannot do, there might be great merit in emphasizing what women *can* do. There is great need for pastoral care among both men and women, and there is a wide scope for women to minister to others.

And frankly - if I'm thirsty, I could care less whether the person extending drink to me is a man or a woman. I would only be too glad that there is drink to quench my thirst, and would gulp it down immediately!

Indeed, I've been blessed by Christ through women in my Christian journey, including some members on this forum...


 2014/10/24 11:22Profile









 Re:

It's pretty difficult to separate these ministry offices from leadership offices. I think the modern ecclesiatical practise have brought this difficulty. So i may understand

 2014/10/24 11:34
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Quote:
It's pretty difficult to separate these ministry offices from leadership offices. I think the modern ecclesiatical practise have brought this difficulty. So i may understand


That's a common but unfortunate error in many churches.

Part of the reason why these debates are so vehement is because without having leadership or authority, ministry opportunities within the church can be circumscribed. For instance, some churches stipulate that only elders and priests/pastors can preach at the pulpit. It might seem a reasonable rule, but I'm not aware of any such stipulation in Scripture.

Also - those in leadership are accorded respect, assumed to be more anointed, and have better standing with God. And so people become occupied to become a leader themselves - climbing up the church hierarchy, as if the church was similar to any other secular organization. One's esteem and self-worth is then tied to his church performance and ministry achievements, but not to Christ. That is contrary to the message of the Gospel.

 2014/10/24 11:47Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
by Yoehan
And frankly - if I'm thirsty, I could care less whether the person extending drink to me is a man or a woman. I would only be too glad that there is drink to quench my thirst, and would gulp it down immediately!


God bless you for your openness!

Quote:
by Yoehan
... For instance, some churches stipulate that only elders and priests/pastors can preach at the pulpit. It might seem a reasonable rule, but I'm not aware of any such stipulation in Scripture.


Here, also, is a little tidbit squeezed in Scripture...

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. ~ 1 Cor 14.26

Never states male or female to bring forth doctrine.

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2014/10/24 18:56Profile
leftbehind
Member



Joined: 2006/6/6
Posts: 41


 Re:

Did women "pastoressess" really do well or did WE LOWER OUR standards?

Nowadays, all a woman has to do is claim abuse or self-defense... make the men look bad and primarily slander a man's name so they can put women pastors in place... Dr. Wayne Grudem wrote this great book on Evangelical Feminism....

Endorsing women leads to the endorsement of homosexual conduct as morally valid and the approval of homosexual ordination

The Liberal Sequence of Events:
1. Abandoning Biblical Inerrancy (Methodist, PC-USA, AOG, LCA, Episcopal)
2. Endorsing the Ordination of Women (Methodist, PC-USA, AOG, LCA, Episcopal)
3. Abandoning the Bible’s teaching on male headship in marriage (Methodist, PC-USA, AOG, LCA, Episcopal)
4. Excluding clergy who are opposed to women’s ordination (Methodist, PC-USA, LCA, Episcopal)
5. Approving homosexual conduct as morally valid in some cases (Methodist, LCA, Episcopal)
6. Approving homosexual ordination (Methodist, Episcopal)
7. Ordaining homosexuals to high leadership positions in the denomination (Methodist, Episcopal)

Not all egalitarians are liberals, but all liberals are egalitarian.

Evangelical Views that Undermine or Deny the Authority of Scripture
Argument and Individuals and Institutions
Genesis 1-3 is Wrong
Rebecca Groothius of Christians for Biblical Equality
William Webb at Heritage Theological Seminary

Paul is Wrong in 1 Timothy 2
Paul King Jewitt of Fuller Seminary
Letha Scanzoni and Nancy Hardesty
Clarence Boomsma of Christian Reformed Church
David Thompson of Asbury Theological Seminary

Some Verses in every MS in Not Part of the Bible (1 Corinthians 14.33-35)
Gordon Fee of Regent College, Committee to translate NIV

Later Developments Trump Scripture
R.T. France of Wycliffe Hall at Oxford U
David Thompson of Asbury Theological Seminary I. Howard Marshall of Aberdeen U
Krister Stendahl of Harvard U
Peter David of St. Stephen’s U and Regent U

Redemptive Movement Trumps Scripture
William Webb’s XYZ Principle in Hermeneutics

It is just a matter of choosing Our Favorite Verses/ Silencing Relevant Verses by Saying they Are Disputed
R.T. France of Wycliffe Hall at Oxford U
Stanley Grenz of Carey Theological College
Sarah Sumner of Azusa Pacific U
Assemblies of God – Cindy Jacobs, Sarah Sumner, Rich Nathan
Pentecostals

A Pastor’s Authority Trumps Scripture
Many evangelical churches

Teaching in a parachurch organization
Many evangelical institutions that claim they are not churches

Tradition Trumps Scripture
Kevin Giles of St. Michael’s Church (Anglican)

Experience Trumps Scripture
Sarah Sumner of AOG
Cindy Jacobs of AOG
Aimee Semple McPherson of Intent’l Church of the 4 Sq Gospel
Judy Brown of Central Bible College (AOG)
Joseph Fletcher, Author
Pentecostals

“Calling” Trumps Scripture
Millicent Hunter, Pastor of Baptist Worship Center
Sarah Sumner of AOG
Pentecostals

“Prophecies” Trump Scripture
Cindy Jacobs of AOG
Pentecostals

Circumstances Trump Scruipture
John Arnott of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship
Cindy Jacobs of AOG

1 Peter 3.1-6 is a Humorous Joke
Gilbert Bilzikian of Wheaton College and Willow Creek Community Church

Evangelical Feminist Views Based on Untruthful or Unsubstantiated Claims
Argument and Individuals and Institutions
Disruptive Women in Corinth (1 Corinthians 14.34)
Craig Keener of Palmer Theological Seminary and Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Stanley Grenz
Linda Belleville of North Park Theological Seminary

Women Homeowners were Elders
Linda Belleville of North Park Theological Seminary

Women Deacons had Authority
Linda Belleville of North Park Theological Seminary

Uneducated Women in Ephesus (1 Timothy 2)
Gilbert Bilzikian of Wheaton College and Willow Creek Community Church
Craig Keener of Palmer Theological Seminary and Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Cindy Jacobs of AOG
J. Lee Grady, Editor of Charisma magazine

Women Teaching False Doctrines at Ephesus
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Craig Keener of Palmer Theological Seminary and Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Gordon Fee of Regent College, Committee to translate NIV
J. Lee Grady, Editor of Charisma magazine
Don Williams, Author
Cindy Jacobs of AOG

Women Teaching a Gnostic Heresy in Ephesus
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Cindy Jacobs of AOG

“Head” means “Source” (Ephesians 5.23 and 1 Corinthians 11.3)
Berkley and Alvera Mickelsen, Authors
Philip B. Payne, Author
Gilbert Bilzikian of Wheaton College and Willow Creek Community Church
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Gretchen Gaebelein Hull, Author
Gordon Fee of Regent College, Committee to translate NIV
Judy Brown, Author

“Authority” means Something Different (1 Timothy 2)
David Scholer of Fuller Seminary
Craig Keener of Palmer Theological Seminary and Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Rebecca Groothius of Christians for Biblical Equality
Leland Wilshire, Author
J. Lee Grady, Editor of Charisma magazine
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary

The Son is not Subordinate to the Father in the Trinity
Gilbert Bilzikian of Wheaton College and Willow Creek Community Church

There were Women Bishops in the Early Church (Based on a Fresco)
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Cindy Jacobs of AOG

The Deeper Issues of Egalitarianism:
A Deep Dislike for anything Masculine
Sarah Sumner
Rebecca Groothius
Stanley Grenz
ELC in America – hymns

God our Mother
Ruth Tucker, Author
Literature sold by Christians for Biblical Equality (sbeinternational.org)
Paul R. Smith, Author
Jann Aldredge-Clanton, Author
Richard and Catherine Kroeger of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
Mimi Hadd, President of CBE
United Methodist Church (Hymn called The Faith We Sing)
Brian Wren of Columbia Theological Seminary
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
Sally Burgess of Baptist Women in Ministry
Elizabeth Clements of BWIM

Appproving Homosexuality
Virginia Mollenkott, Author
Letha Scanzoni, Author
Roy Clements of Eden Baptist Church
The Episcopal Church in the U.S. – V. Gene Robinson
Bishop Katharine Schori of Episcopal Church in the U.S.
PC-USA – growing approval
Evangelical Lutheran Church of America – growing approval
Uniting Church of Australia
Rainbow Baptists
The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
The United Methodist Reconciling Congregation Program
The United Methodist Church – Karen Dammann
American Baptist Churches (USA) – growing influence
Christian Reformed Church – 1st Christian Reformed Church in Toronto and Calvin College; Rev. Robert De Moor, Ed. of Banner
Fuller Seminary – Jack and Judith Balswick; Mel White
InterVarsity Press (USA)

Jess

 2014/10/24 22:11Profile
leftbehind
Member



Joined: 2006/6/6
Posts: 41


 Re:

In Dr. Wayne Grudem's book EVANGELICAL FEMINISM

Evangelical Feminism: A New Path to Liberalism?


These are the arguments people are saying today:

“Paul was Wrong”

“Later Developments trump Scripture”

“We should ignore the disputed passages”

“A pastor’s authority trumps Scripture”

“Tradition trumps Scripture”

“Experience trumps Scripture”

“Calling trumps Scripture”
...... is another step on the path towards liberalism.”

“The Next Step: Denial of Anything Uniquely Masculine”,

“Another Troubling Step: God our Mother”

“The Final Step: Approval of Homosexuality”.

Jess

 2014/10/24 22:15Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Wow, Leftbehind - those are very derogatory remarks, with little Scripture offered to back them up.

When women preach an imperfect message, teach false doctrine, abuse their authority, or refuse to submit to God - why do some attribute these failings to their gender?

It is not uncommon for men to err in these areas too, yet we almost never see similar judgements applied to men.

If you do not extend respect to women and speak disparagingly of them, that probably is an indication that you have adopted wrong doctrine about the role of women in God's kingdom. It does not pass the "love test", and therefore cannot be aligned with God's character.

I speak this from experience... because there was a time when I had off-kilter views on this issue. I found it difficult to receive anything from women preachers (which had not been the case prior to this). I would turn off when women started preaching at the pulpit, and make ill judgements about her spiritual walk. I might have had some form of zeal, but it was zeal without knowledge nor love.

God has since helped me to correct my views, though I still don't have everything figured out. But let us not forget the big picture - that *both* men and women are called to the same level of spiritual maturity... until *all* men and women "attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4).


 2014/10/25 9:15Profile





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