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rufnrust
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Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 241
Indiana

 Re: "pastoress"???

Think about it. If you or I have learned something from a woman who is tesifying,prophesying, or whatever. We have been taught. Selah

Russell


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Russell

 2014/10/24 6:56Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I'm always disappointed when believers try to bend scriptures to suit the prevailing culture rather than bend the culture to the scripture. Time Square church is a church i respect so much, like many other churches, i was disappointed reading the first few paragraphs of the articule posted by Greg. If we follow the same line of reason then we should be sincere to give away the biblical view that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman, because by the prevalent culture at least in some part of the world this won't be correct. I beleive the bible has it's own defined culture, superior to any culture in the world, and it does not change.



Agreed dear brother, my main reason for posting the article is to show that even very godly good churches can take a cultural position on this and other issues so we must follow the Lord alone and Scriptures and not others when we have a conviction on an important issue such as this.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/10/24 6:56Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

Agreed dear brother, my main reason for posting the article is to show that even very godly good churches can take a cultural position on this and other issues so we must follow the Lord alone and Scriptures and not others when we have a conviction on an important issue such as this.



Was this article written when David Wilkerson was still in Charge of Timesquare Church? If not then it should be a case of degrading of any Godly Church.


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Sreeram

 2014/10/24 7:32Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
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 Re:

Quote:

Think about it. If you or I have learned something from a woman who is tesifying,prophesying, or whatever. We have been taught. Selah



There is a world of difference between teaching and prophesying. Teaching comes with authority, when Jesus taught in his meetings, those who heard him were amazed at his authority. A women cannot teach like that, she can share her experienece and encourage others, but cannot teach with authority. The result is you might be encouraged by what she shared, but not taught.


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Sreeram

 2014/10/24 7:37Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Hello Chrstsm:

Quote:

From my reading, Junia is a female, but from the context of the chapter she was not an apostle.



What specifically do you see "from the context of the chapter" that excludes the idea of Junia being an apostle? Romans 16:1-17 is simply a laundry list of greetings that the apostle Paul provides to individuals he knows to be at the church in Rome.

If anything, these associates of his who happen to be at Rome seem to largely be people he regards as laborers/servants/co-workers in ministry, especially in the early half of the greeting. There is Phoebe (vs 1-2), Prisca and Aquila (vs 3-5), Mary (vs 6), Ubanus (vs 9), Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Persis (vs 12).

In vs 7, Andronicus and Junias, whoever they are, Paul regards as kinsmen and fellow prisoners. Chances are that if they were "fellow prisoners" with Paul, and joined him in jail, it was likely that they were in jail due to the ministry they were performing.

Contextually speaking, the evidence points to Andronicus and Junias being engaged in some sort of ministry. Such is probably why they were regarded as famous, as they were imprisoned for their work in ministry.


Quote:

Further, Dr. Burer and Dr. Wallace have written an article about Junia and in it they brings light and correction to what Paul had Tertius write in the Greek language. This is his article, "Wallace, Daniel B., "Was Junia Really an Apostle? A Reexamination of Romans 16:7." JBMW 6, no. 2 (2001). 4-11." and in it he displays that the Greek wording notes that, "Junia was well known to the apostles rather than outstanding among them" (Wallace. New Test. Stud. 47-91. Printed in the United Kingdom 2001 Cambridge University Press. There are options available to get copies of this article via the local library, college library, or possibly paying for it via the web.



It is not likely that my local public library has access to online academic Biblical journal articles. Sadly, even though I'm in the Bible belt of all places, my local library hardly has good set Biblical commentaries. My former seminary does, however. But I'm not in seminary anymore, and don't have access to their library or systems.

If you happen to have a copy of the article, I will gladly read it.

Regarding the Greek rendering of Romans 16:7, and the research I have done on the matter previously, and looking at it again, I will say my conclusion on exactly how to render the Greek is something that could go either way, and is less than definitive. If somebody claims a definitive translation on the issue based on the grammar and syntax of the one verse alone, I would be skeptical, as looking at it myself, honestly, I could see it going either way.

However, one thing to keep in mind when translating vague and iffy verses is the immediate context of the verse. And in my opinion, asking a few simple questions would indicate how could render the verse.

1) Paul's list of greetings in Romans 16:1-17 is written to people the apostle Paul personal knows in Rome.

2) Of the people listed, the vast majority of them seem to be actively engaged in ministry, and are regarded as having been "co-workers" with the apostle Paul.

3) Andronicas and Junias seem to be a married couple, who mirror the married ministry minded couple of Prisca and Aquilla, which have a house church in Rome.

4) Andronicas and Junias are famous/highly-regard, as their ministry has landed them in prison together, and they were fellow jail-birds with the apostle Paul.

5) If Andronicas and Junias are famous/high-regarded in the eyes of other apostles, such begs a series of questions:

a) Are the apostles Paul is speaking of "apostles" like himself, such as Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanus, Apollos, Titus, and others?
b) Are the apostles Paul is speaking of "the" twelve?
c) If they are highly regarded individuals in the eyes of the twelve apostles... how does the apostle Paul know this??? His interactions with the twelve apostles were very rare, and often many years apart. Based on our knowledge of Paul's life, there is no evidence he saw them again after the council of Jerusalem. And it wasn't until after the council of Jerusalem that Paul began to experience regular imprisonment for preaching, during which time he seems to have been imprisoned with Andronicus and Junias.

Due to the vagueness of the Greek, "contextually," I would argue that the weight of evidence suggests Andronicus and Junias were famous apostles in their own right, as they were imprisoned with the apostle Paul for their labors in preaching the gospel. They weren't famous simply because other apostles regarded them as outstanding people. They were famous because they had done something significant in the midst of experiencing persecution.

Quote:

If they did, this is contrary to His Word and sadly something that neither He nor we are unaccustomed to.



Or... it could just be contrary to the way you understand God's word? Perhaps your understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12 isn't altogether clear?

There is a lot of data available in the New Testament that should cause us to pause and chew over these things very carefully. If somebody says to me that it is "clear" from thew New Testament that women aren't to preach/teach/pastor and that such ministry functions are strictly reserved for men alone, I would caution them against such a "clear" reading.

In my opinion, based on a lot of time chewing these things over, it is anything but "clear" what limitations were placed on women in ministry in the New Testament. Without a doubt, there seems to be evidence to suggest that women had limitations placed on them in regard to ministry. But at other times, there is evidence in the New Testament to suggest that they operated very freely and without restriction in regard to ministry. Why they had restrictions sometimes and seemingly not in other situations, it is not altogether "clear."

There is a lot of data available to us, and some of this data seems to be in "tension" with what we read in other parts of the New Testament. And such exists, not because the text contains contradictions, but because there is no systematic explanation given to us regarding these things in the Scripture. We have bits and pieces, but "clearly" we are never given one giant cohesive explanation that tells us how everything worked.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/24 7:51Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Additionally, part of what muddies our understanding of the issue is that we often think of ministry today in a way that nobody in the New Testament thought of ministry.

For example, if you were to ask me: "Should we ordain women in ministry?" My answer would be "No." But, truth be told, I don't think we should ordain men into ministry either. For there was no practice of "ordination" in the New Testament.

Also, a lot of people today like to talk about ministry "offices." But truth be told, the New Testament knows little to nothing of ministry being an "office."

The New Testament talks about ministry in the context of function within a family. Your "authority" is not a "position," rather, your "authority" is in the quality of the life you life to the degree it is in keeping with the life of Christ, is a life that others rightly imitate, and you have the gifts necessary to instruct others on how to live the life you live in Christ.

A minister has "authority" because they are "older" in the faith, and can instruct and demonstrate to others how Christians ought to live their lives. They don't have "authority" because somebody gave them a piece of paper and laid hands on them, and gave them a position in an organization.

Unfortunately, conversations such as these are often muddied by the idea that ministry is connected to positions of authority within an institution. Such a notion is outright false. It may be our present day setup, but it isn't something they did in the New Testament.


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Jimmy H

 2014/10/24 8:00Profile
passerby
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 Re:

Only God can give ecclesiastical authority to anybody and He has the right to revoke it. Explicit instructions has been given on to whom laying of hands shall be granted. We may feel, 'that's unfair, foolish, or illogical' but those were the direct instructions. He is the Lord and we are not even worthy to be called His servants.

Soteriological passages nor old testament situations, nor church history do not make the ecclesiastical rules null and void. Rather we should look into our hearts, as God is looking for the one that fears Him and humbly submits and obeys His commandments and not the one that leans on his own wisdom and understanding.

Remember just how King Saul had fallen from a seemingly simple, justifiable disobedience.

 2014/10/24 9:09Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

I humbly submit that this is not an easy question. Like you brothers, I've read and studied over the years, and I've prayed about it.

There are things that time itself has obscured. There are things still that, in addition to time, the biases that we bring to all understanding obscure, even as we do our best before God to be free from them. I consider it a benefit to my own self that I have conflicting biases about this question, keeping me from settling on any one position with certainty on something that I do not clearly see one way or the other. Yet, if it were possible, certainly objective clarity would be better.

All that to say this: if we disagree, we do so in love and with great deference to the other.

I do not understand Scripture to teach that Junias was an "apostle", but I do believe she was eyebrow deep into apostolic ministry. If that's what you'd call a distinction without a difference, it is open to that criticism. Barnabas wasn't an apostle, either, but he was certainly apostolic with Paul. Silas served both Paul and Peter, as did Mark. The apostolic, front-line, cutting edge ministry of the gospel to unreached people and the leadership of people who had been saved was shared with those who were not properly "apostles". Junias was such a person, at least as well as I can read and observe.

That said, I do also see the injunctions about women from Paul's pen. And, at the same time, I look at the church in the world today and I see women pastoring and shepherding and teaching men, with what appears to me to be the blessing and anointing of God. What do you do with that?

Well, I'll tell you what I do with it. I sit down and shut up. :) One thing I know is that God has not placed Tim in the body to be the judge and approver of what God's servants in other places, other groups, other gatherings, etc. are doing. Not that I suspend discrimination from my mind, because I do watch and weigh against the Word. But, I do suspend what I do not have -- and that is any guise of right or authority to insert myself into God's work as the judge of His work.

Locally, in my local church body, I am in a different position. In my home, certainly my position is different. My personal experience with women preachers/pastors has been almost completely disastrous. In my own life, as far as my personal experience is concerned (and, that's a small area, admittedly) the women who have taken on the role of shepherd and teacher have been silly women with all kinds of false teaching and false ideas. In my local church, the pastor unilaterally refers to his wife as his "co-pastor" and calls her "Pastor [her name]". I never do. I call her "Sister" or just her name. She holds a denominational license to preach. She's sweet, she's kind, but let her into a pulpit and --- well, it is not good. Not good to the point that if she's preaching, me and mine are quietly leaving. A church we were once members of in the past later had a female pastor; it was an unmitigated disaster full of -- again -- false teaching. Husbands of women teachers sometimes fail to hold their wives accountable doctrinally. So, for us -- that is my wife and me --, we prefer to hold to the rule of Paul that women ought to keep silent in terms of teaching. But, we do not insist that anyone who does differently acts unbiblically.

In our marriage and in our home gatherings, though, it is different. My wife submits to me. She asks me and we discuss Scripture. She learns from me some, but she is an able Bible student in her own right. She has piercing insights and understanding. She is a gifted, skilled, trained and experienced trainer of others in her work, constantly lauded in her abilities to communicate and teach and engage. She does not lack confidence in what she knows nor in how she knows it. In processing what we see and learn, we will conflict on things on occasion until we are able to boil down to the "nut" of a truth, pulling off the unnecessary things as just that, and it has been invariably true that at that point, we look at each other and say, "See? That's what I was saying all along" and, "I know, me, too!" :) So, that's the at-home process: agreement and discussion, and at times differing perspectives and getting to the heart of the truth on them together. In our meetings at home, we say "all participate", "all have gifts", "none are limited except as by the Lord", "all submit to each other". There is neither male nor female in that setting, and none of us is "the" teacher (well, maybe I am in a way, but I consciously try to yield) with authority over the others in any real way. Our goal is glorifying God, building up one another in the faith, which does require so much submission that (I'm learning) it is not really optimal to set forth one or more as "the" teachers above the others.


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Tim

 2014/10/24 9:40Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

I've got a question -

Ephesians 4:11 speaks of God giving "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers". Are these callings tied to having leadership and authority in a local church?

I don't think the text suggests that. When it comes to church structure in the New Testament, local congregations are governed by elders. So I'm not persuaded that the "five-fold ministry" in Ephesians 4:11 actually refers to church offices.

In fact, there is mention of female prophets and female evangelists in Scripture. Accordingly, I don't see why there can't be female apostles and female pastors - even if you believe that leadership of a congregation is for men (which is my understanding).

Bear in mind that "pastor" in the New Testament is different from "pastor" in today's parlance. That it has become a leadership title is a modern development, I believe.

 2014/10/24 10:11Profile









 Re:

Indeed God will help us on this issue, it belongs to one of such themes that have been twisted by the prevalent culture, but sincere men will always maintain the ancient land mark. [although as in every teaching we must be careful of extreme, otherwise we can as well say that women should not post on this forum, for that is like "not keeping silent in the church"- of course i understand church to mean any community of believers including this one]. Many times i try avoiding issues like this, but right now i'm studying 1TIM, and i can't just escape this. If i escape chapter 2, chapter 3 is there, in which there's no mention of this our modern practise of "deaconess". It appears to me that in scripture the man only is ordained, and the woman is simply the wife of the deacon. Whatever work she would do, she does it under the capacity of "the wife of the deacon" and not as an ordained deaconess or pastoress or teacher in her own right. I think this is simple for any honest man to understand.

 2014/10/24 10:28





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