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 Grace Rules by Gary Wilkerson

http://sermons.worldchallenge.org/en/newsletter/2014/grace-rules

 2014/10/21 6:57









 Re: Grace Rules by Gary Wilkerson

We have all been blessed in Christ BEFORE we were even born.
This blessing can not be the result of our faith, belief, surrender, repentance or any work at all.

 2014/10/22 11:13
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
We have all been blessed in Christ BEFORE we were even born.
This blessing can not be the result of our faith, belief, surrender, repentance or any work at all.


tuc, I had asked you in another thread if by "all" you mean all human beings without exception, regardless of whether or not one ever repents and trusts in Christ as their Lord and Savior on in this life. In other words, do you believe in universal reconciliation or universal salvation? Would really appreciate an answer. Thanks.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/10/22 12:54Profile









 Re: All means All

Yes Christ died for ALL sinners! Every single one of them.
This is a Divine Fact that is unchangeable. Even if someone never repents or believes, Christ died for them.

Do all go to heaven? NO! NO! NO!


"The normal Christian life is lived progressively, as it is entered initially, by faith in Divine fact: in Christ and His Cross." Watchman Nee

Edit:added quote

 2014/10/22 13:11
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Have I got this wrong? It seems to me that (after listening to Gary's preaching for a couple of month) that the son of David Wilkerson has shifted his focus concerning the preaching towards a message predominantly about grace (with a so to speak Joseph Prince-ish type of message). I hope I am wrong about this. I also felt that the style of worship in Garry's congregation was too contemporary/progressive (a kind of rock n roll/pop worship)..

Sincerely Magnus


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2014/10/22 13:55Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks for the answer tuc. Was getting concerned there for a bit and getting ready to put on my heresy hunting hat, just kidding ;) I would have tried to be as respectful as possible though strongly disagreeing.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/10/22 14:24Profile









 Re: Oracio

I would like to know why you disagreed with my statement.

Yes Christ died for ALL sinners! Every single one of them.
This is a Divine Fact that is unchangeable. Even if someone never repents or believes, Christ died for them.

1. Do you believe Christ Died on the Cross?
2. If a person does not believe that, does not mean He did not die on the Cross?
3. Did Christ die for every single person or were some excluded?
4. If some were excluded please explain how and why they were excluded.

Thanks

 2014/10/24 13:43
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: tuc

Quote:
I would like to know why you disagreed with my statement.

Yes Christ died for ALL sinners! Every single one of them.
This is a Divine Fact that is unchangeable. Even if someone never repents or believes, Christ died for them.

1. Do you believe Christ Died on the Cross?
2. If a person does not believe that, does not mean He did not die on the Cross?
3. Did Christ die for every single person or were some excluded?
4. If some were excluded please explain how and why they were excluded.

Thanks


Hey tuc, in answer to your post I'll share some of my comments I posted on this thread not that long ago:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=53416&forum=36&19

"When it comes to the atonement, I lean toward both a limited atonement and general atonement.

By limited atonement I mean that Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of His elect, thus eternally saving them from God's ultimate wrath because Christ took that ultimate wrath on Himself.

By general atonement I mean that Christ also paid partially for the sins of the non-elect and therefore they are able to live temporarily in this life without immediately being thrown into hell when they commit a sin. Because of this general atonement God can bestow temporal blessings on the non-elect here on earth. Without this general atonement there would be no forbearance of God toward the non-elect.

Respectfully, the view of a full atonement for the whole world doesn't make sense to me. If it was true that Christ actually paid fully for the sins of the non-elect, to me it would have to follow that they shouldn't perish in hell because their sins have been paid for...."

In that thread brother Greg asked, "Where do we see this view in Scripture brother?" to which I replied,

"Sure. First I'd point out 1Timothy 4:10 which says that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

I'd also point out the clear teaching of the scriptures that the soul that sins will die (Ezek.18:4)and that the wages of sin is death(Rom.6:23), meaning not only physical but also spiritual and eternal damnation. Apart from the mercy of God and benefits of the cross of Christ, every person would be thrown into hell immediately when they sinned.

I'll share a piece from John Piper's ministry website(MacArthur also holds this same two-fold view of the atonement btw):

"We do not deny that all men are the intended beneficiaries of the cross in some sense. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Christ is “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that all men are intended as the beneficiaries of the death of Christ in the same way. All of God’s mercy toward unbelievers — from the rising sun (Matthew 5:45) to the worldwide preaching of the gospel (John 3:16) — is made possible because of the cross.

This is the implication of Romans 3:25 where the cross is presented as the basis of God’s righteousness in passing over sins. Every breath that an unbeliever takes is an act of God’s mercy withholding judgment (Romans 2:4). Every time the gospel is preached to unbelievers it is the mercy of God that gives this opportunity for salvation.

Whence does this mercy flow to sinners? How is God just to withhold judgment from sinners who deserve to be immediately cast into hell? The answer is that Christ’s death so clearly demonstrates God’s just abhorrence of sin that he is free to treat the world with mercy without compromising his righteousness. In this sense Christ is the savior of all men.

But he is especially the Savior of those who believe. He did not die for all men in the same sense. The intention of the death of Christ for the children of God was that it purchase far more than the rising sun and the opportunity to be saved. The death of Christ actually saves from ALL evil those for whom Christ died “especially.”

There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God’s people, not for every individual. For example:

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.” The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. “You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.” Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son."

Source: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism#Atonement

"Another scripture that came to mind is 2Peter 2:1, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

So that scripture says that there were false teachers whom the Lord "bought". I'd take that to mean a partial, temporal purchase, if those false teachers never repented and trusted in Christ while on earth."

Hope that helps explain where I am on this topic. I know this is one of those "non-essential" issues among Christians so there is no need to divide over it. In other words, whether one believes Christ died fully in the same exact way for all sinners both elect and non-elect, or whether one believes in a limited atonement as I explained is not a salvation issue.

But I was glad to hear that you don't believe in universalism (meaning that everyone is going to heaven). Clearly one must repent and trust in Christ in this life for the forgiveness of their sins. That is an essential, salvation issue.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/10/25 12:44Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: To whom does the death of Christ afford eternal life?

The concept of election does a great disservice to the understanding of the atonement. May I speak of my own early exposure to Christianity?

John Calvin's theology still underpinning much of evangelical Christianity held that God was free to elect from the men and women He'd created some to be saved and some to be lost. Since they were all triple damned in the first place- Adam's sin, their sinful nature, and their own sin- none has a claim to the Grace of God anyway. God alone has the right to choose the ones that will be saved.

When I was taught all this in my Presbyterian church upbringing, I was also instructed to wait for God to call me and only then would I know I was one of the elect. He was "the author and finisher" of my faith, my will had little or nothing to do with it. Who was I to tell God who should be saved, who to be damned. "Shall the clay say to the potter??" And verses like that.

So it made sense that the punishments inflicted on Jesus at the cross were in exact proportion to the volume of sins being paid for, the exact sins for the exact number of souls God would be saving. It was called "retributive justice," just like old testament "an eye for an eye."

Oh what a dilemma this presents. No wonder a strong movement of universalism developed, men who saw this as so unjust- many refused to serve a God with such an arbitrary attitude toward men! They concluded that if Christ paid the price of one sinner, He paid the price of all. Nothing less could qualify as justice.

The error in all this goes back to Calvin's foundational presupposition that all men are so constitutionally depraved that God has no obligation to save any of them. A God of love would not put Himself in that position, and His character never gets to a place where some men are meaningless to Him.

Powerful words of Scripture, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance." That is His eternal attitude, and comports easily with the true explanation of Christ's atoning work.

Jesus did not die under the weight of a certain number of individual sins. He died for just one man's sins without respect to numbers. He took the sins of one man, of many men, of all men- who repent! His sacrifice is sufficient to save any and all men who ever existed and sinned, but- and this is important- it does not obligate Him to save anyone!

If all men repented and believed, all would be saved. But if no man repented and believed, Christ's death would still stand before God as the Holy provision for man's redemption, preserving His eternal love and honor.

Of course, we live in the midst of this. We know people who are repentant members of the body and unrepentant sinners for whom the blood avails nothing. And this is the beacon light of our evangelistic mission, to convince men at home and abroad to acknowledge their sin, to repent, and to receive that mighty forgiveness in the blood of the savior. Nowhere in the scripture are we advised to determine whether anyone is elect before declaring the gospel, rather we have a field ripe for harvest and way too few laborers!

This view of atonement is called public justice, and it destroys both the evangelistic hesitation of election, and the anarchy of lawless universalism.

By whatever happened in your life you came to Christ with a humbled heart and asked for forgiveness- He did not hesitate to give it to you. Nor will He hesitate to give forgiveness to anyone else who asks for it, there is nothing in the gospel that excludes any man from His Grace.

Would that all men see Him for what He is, and bow before Him while they still have breath!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/10/26 1:16Profile









 Re: Oracio

I do have a real problem with your belief on this subject and even disagree with it completely and even vehemently disagree that this is "non-essential" issue among Christians.

So if I get this the meaning of this teaching here is what I would have to say if asked to talk in front of a church to proclaim the Good news of the gospel.

------------------------------------------------------------

“I am here to tell you the good news of the gospel and that Christ died for you, opps – wait, I forgot that Christ only died for some of you and if you are not one of God’s elect you are doomed forever to hell. You have been excluded and there is absolutely nothing that you can ever do anything about it.”

“None of the promises of God apply to you and since Christ did not die for you, you can not believe or repent. You will continue to sin daily without any hope whatsoever and then spend eternity in hell.”
---------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT the gospel and if you teach this, someone could get the idea that they are not one of the “elect” and as a result do nothing because they feel rejected by God Himself.

It is impossible to be saved if you if you do believe that Christ died for you. If you are excluded then there is no hope at all!

 2014/10/26 7:39





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