| The cross always present in the Godhead?|
So me and a brother are driving along in the country the other day just talking and sharing about the things of the Spirit and the word. At some point we began discussing the Godhead and the cross came into it related to the fact of Christ being eternal. So if Christ is eternal and He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world does this mean that in the eternal communion betwenn the Father ans the Son that as the Father communed with and looked upon the Son that He saw the cross already? Some would likely say that the cross came later as the Father looked ahead etc. and saw how things were going to go and at some point Christ was approached and spoken to about the possibility of Him enduring the cross during a incarnation. That may sound a little wonky but I have heard that in a few places from time to time. On the other hand, was the cross always there from all eternity? I'm inclined to believe it was. Does anyone have any view or thoughts they may want to share on this? I'm not trying to create a stir or introduce anything unsound. I'm just wanting to talk a bit about this aspect of the things of God. I'm thinking there's something here that can cause us to marvel and edify us.
| 2014/9/28 11:13||Profile|
| Re: A bit more on the eternal nature of the Godhead and the cross|
I'm not presenting this as something you must believe in its entirety but rather as food for thought. Right click it then click Open to get to it. Comments welcome.
| 2014/9/29 9:11||Profile|
| Adolph Saphir on Christ crucified from eternity|
“And yet it is in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, that life and immortality, that eternity was brought to light. In the manifestation of the everlasting Son of God, there is given unto us a clearer insight into eternity, both of eternity “before the world was” and the eternity towards which we are looking.”
“Men crucified Christ, because so they would. God had determined it from all eternity.”
“Thus Christ crucified was in the mind of God; His goings forth were from Abraham, from Adam, from the beginning of the world.”
“But we must go further back. Think of creation. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever He formed the earth, there was with Him the everlasting wisdom, the Son of His love, the word of His power; by Him all things were made. He is the beginning of the creation of God – the Alpha in whom God thought of creation, and in whom God carried out His design. Even then He was, in the divine mind, God and man in one person, the Saviour of sinners. Christ was set up from everlasting; and Christ, we are taught in Scripture as the Lamb slain; for it was God's purpose that the Son of God, taking upon Him human nature, should be at once the climax and Head of all creation, as well as the perfect revelation of God.” 78
“And therefore, we find that the whole creation was made with an express leaning towards the crucifixion of Jesus Christ;”
“In creation, as it was in Christ and for Christ, the Lamb of God was in the mind of the Father. Therefore, from the beginning, the cross of the Lord Jesus was in the purpose of God.”
“But, if in creation, then before creation. “The hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world.” It is only by faith that our minds can take the step from “the world” to “before the world.” The Scriptures reveal God's eternal counsel. In the case of Christ's crucifixion, where the sinful will of man in its intense opposition to God, and its connexion with the power of darkness, meets with the infinite and omnipotent love and wisdom of God, we see in the most striking manner how the sin of man and the determinate counsel of God co-exist, though we cannot harmonize the two opposite lines of truth. We know that there are the decrees of God according to which from all eternity He hath fore-ordained all things, and that all decrees of God are comprised and centre in the person and work of the Incarnate Son. God has many decrees; God has only one purpose: to manifest Himself, to show forth His glory, to reveal His perfections, and to show them forth in His only-begotten and well-beloved Son, and in Him as Jesus Christ crucified. The Lamb of God was slain, the Apostle tells us, before the foundation of the world. Redemption is no afterthought in God:"
(Taken from "Christ Crucified: Lectures on I Corinthians II" - Lecture Four - by Adolph Saphir - 1873)
I'm marvelling again at this most basic and yet wondrous of truths. Long have I acknowledged it and yet it has taken on fresh meaning to me. I'm sure my memory serves me corectly that the notion has been advocated that at some point in eternity it was decidied Christ would be the Savior. I have heard that but it seems the cross was part of the Godhead's plan from ALL eternity, from the furthest reaches. There never was a point in eternity where the cross was not present. Have I said that correctly in your opinion? Is this view entirely sound? Comments welcome.
| 2014/10/2 6:07||Profile|
| Re: Adolph Saphir on Christ crucified from eternity|
And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
“Everyone of the children of Israel shall camp by his own standard, beside the emblems of his father’s house; they shall camp some distance from the tabernacle of meeting.
“On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah.”
And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred.
“Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar.”
And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred.
“Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun.”
And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred.
“All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred—these shall break camp first.
“On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.”
And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred.
“Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.”
And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred.
“Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.”fn
And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty.
“All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty—they shall be the second to break camp.
“And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards.
“On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.”
And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred.
“Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh, and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.”
And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred.
“Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.”
And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred.
“All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred—they shall be the third to break camp.
“The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.”
And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred.
“Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.”
And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred.
“Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.”
And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred.
“All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred—they shall break camp last, with their standards.”
These are the ones who were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers’ houses. All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces were six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty.
But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel, just as the LORD commanded Moses.
Thus the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses; so they camped by their standards and so they broke camp, each one by his family, according to their fathers’ houses.
If you, according to the Scripture above, draw out on paper the instructions given Moses and Aaron, the nation of Israel forms a cross.
| 2014/10/2 6:56||Profile|
| Re: The eternal cross is in the eternal character of God|
The stark difference between our God and the gods created by man is in the eternal loving character, that the trinity of God means He is a God of relationship and since love seeks the highest and best for another, it is no wonder that the potential for self sacrifice is ever present- even before the direct need presents itself.
Jesus is indeed the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, because the character of God is such that He would not create beings capable of being lost without a provisional plan for salvation. His love would not allow that.
My vision is the Father and the Son sitting in a Starbucks enjoying one another's company when the Father says, "I have an idea..."
But when He lays out the plan for a physical creation with man as the primary goal, He asks whether Jesus would be willing to pay the price of salvation if any or all of these men creatures were to sin. Being of the same loving character, Jesus agrees with a whole heart. He has already become the Lamb slain, before creation proceeds.
| 2014/10/2 11:28||Profile|
| Re: The cross always present in the Godhead?|
I love your heart in speaking of the things of Christ. One of the scriptures which opened my eyes to the sacrificial character of God was the vision of Zechariah in chapter 4.
Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
The picture of the Golden Candlestick and the two Olive trees which "empty the GOLDEN OIL out of themselves" (v 12) is, to me, the clearest description of the Trinity contained in scripture.
It is the nature of God to empty Himself of Glory. This nature of God was revealed to us in Christ, who did not count equality with God (Glory) as a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself..........therefore God...... (Phil 2)
| 2014/10/3 3:52||Profile|
| Thanks for the answers|
I have read each of them and thought about them and came away the better for it. This concept seems really to have no end to its depth of meaning and significance. It seems so wonderful that it seems (to the natural mind anyway) that it can't be but yet it is! Some say at some point in eternity the Godhead took counsel within itself and Christ agreed to become humanly incarnate and make an atonement for sin. Some advocate it was never a matter of sitting down at some point and taking counsel together in the Godhead but rather the cross was present from all eternity and understood from the get go and was always presnt in the interaction in the Giodhead. If that is so it is even more awesome. Yet whatever way best expresses the reality we are discussing it is matter of marvel. Either view is extrememy edifying.
| 2014/10/4 7:33||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| Re: The cross always present in the Godhead?|
What a tremendous topic! I believe that there has always been an "eternal cross" in God; what I mean by that is a principle of action in the Godhead that has always been true and this principle is revealed to man in the Cross.
This cross-principle is that spirit of selfless giving, which always serves and shares with One Another. The Bible reveals that no member of the Godhead lives for or unto Himself but rather for and unto the Other. The Father intends that in all things the Son should have pre-eminence. The Son in turn lives to reveal the Father and bring Him glory and pleasure. Like wise the Spirit speaks not of Himself but is working actively to reveal the Son and realize the purpose of Father and Son. Father and Son are both dependent upon the Spirit to fulfill the eternal economy of their purpose.
So the Cross is much more than just an act in history, it's expressive of the very nature of the Godhead, and a most wonderful principle in which God has dealt with man from the beginning. He desires that this same principle be worked into us today.
| 2014/10/4 16:22||Profile|