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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What to do when you come across someone sawing a co-workers head off?

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 Re:

Personally I am a pacifist, I hate violence, I hate war and I hate gratuitous hunting I can't even stand to see animals harmed. But the situation I am describing in this post has nothing to do with me returning evil for evil or suffering wrong for doing good or persecution of Christians etc. etc. The whole SI debate on what to do with radical Muslims beheading people in the Middle East has now come home to roost and it's happening right here in the United States amongst us. I just thought for once we could lay down our personal ideals and theological positions and agree to have common sense because I can tell you I personally believe Jesus would've picked up that gun or used other means and stopped that man from killing the innocent woman. He would not have stood by and called 911 or run away; so this is a real life example and we are going to be presented with more and more situations like this. Please do not side with foolishness and judge this good man who used a gun to defend The life of another.

 2014/9/27 16:20
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Under the Circumstances

At one point in Jesus' ministry, a man asked Him to take the brother of the man to task, commanding the brother to share the inheritance. Jesus' answer was, "Who made me arbiter for you and your brother?" There was an authority Jesus had, and some He did not have.

So it is with men. "For him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James counsels us. There are times when circumstances thrust authority upon us, and we need to act with that authority as the situation demands. For me, using violence to save the life of an innocent person from another man's violence is clearly the right thing to do. There is aggressive violence, and defensive violence. The latter is simply the use of sufficient force to terminate the threat, it is nothing like the violence that seeks to hurt another for one's personal gain.

It is so interesting that the gospel accounts of the kindly acts of healing and wisdom defining the earthly ministry of our precious savior also include the temple cleansing. As a friend of mine once posted on Facebook,

"Sometimes, 'What would Jesus do?' involves a whip and some crashing tables."

Non-violent responses of lovingkindness are always best, but sometimes that is not an option.



_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/9/27 16:40Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Brother Mark I agree with you 1000%

To not protect the other innocent woman from this monster and allow him to cut her head off too would be sinning, pure and simple.

Can you imagine a scenario where the co-worker had NOT taken action when he had the power (gun) to do so and have to explain to the 2nd woman's family (because she is now beheaded too) that "sorry, I am a Christian and therefore had to allow your loved one to be beheaded."

This is preposterous and it is a twisting of scripture to think otherwise.

I may have missed it but I did not see anywhere in the story where angels were showing up to protect anybody in that building. Oh wait-- the co-worker was the angel. Duh.


_________________
Todd

 2014/9/27 18:10Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by awakened on 2014/9/27 13:20:07

Personally I am a pacifist, I hate violence, I hate war and I hate gratuitous hunting I can't even stand to see animals harmed. But the situation I am describing in this post has nothing to do with me returning evil for evil or suffering wrong for doing good or persecution of Christians etc. etc. The whole SI debate on what to do with radical Muslims beheading people in the Middle East has now come home to roost and it's happening right here in the United States amongst us. I just thought for once we could lay down our personal ideals and theological positions and agree to have common sense because I can tell you I personally believe Jesus would've picked up that gun or used other means and stopped that man from killing the innocent woman. He would not have stood by and called 911 or run away; so this is a real life example and we are going to be presented with more and more situations like this. Please do not side with foolishness and judge this good man who used a gun to defend The life of another.

____________________

Greetings Mark

I can't see the picture you painted of JESUS killing anyone. JESUS took on the sin or the world, suffered and died on the cross so that no man would suffer eternity of hell. I just don't seem HIM now killing people as you described. Historically at anytime JESUS could have stepped into human history and stopped many innocents from dying but HE hasn't.

All I can say is I just don't see things the way you do I guess. It has nothing to do with "ideals" or "theological debate", its just what JESUS has pressing on my heart.

As for the man you spoke of who shot the attacker, I don't judge him. Its not my place to do so. I pray for him though, I am sure after such a horrible ordeal he could use the prayers.

I will close by saying I don't feel like I am siding with foolishness. I thanked Greg for posting the verses and pointing us to JESUS because I thought them good reminders. Honestly I just want to follow the LORD and I can honestly say right now prayer is where I think we all need to be. Praying for the lost and deceived in this world to see their need for JESUS before it is to late.

God bless you
maryjane

edit: wanted to convey my heart in a CHRIST like manner and felt I needed to change some things to do so.

 2014/9/27 18:25Profile









 Re:

I hear what you are saying sister, but I think what this discussion highlights for me more than anything is how often we as Christians tend to fix our beliefs about everything even those things which are not essential issues. I mean as a believer there is only one or two absolutely he essential issues that I will never change my position on and they have to do with the centrality of salvation by faith in Christ. But things like this exact specific situation, surely there is room in our theology and understanding of what is right or wrong for us to shade outside the lines? Or do we have to be absolutely certain and correct about every single thing in life? I'm just asking the question...I certainly don't know everything and I certainly would never want to say that I absolutely can tell you what God's attitude is or what He would do in a horrific situation like this. I just think in this specific situation there is enough murkiness and contradiction in Scripture for us to say that there is grace for a person in this kind of situation to save the life of another. Now why is it too hard to agree on that?

 2014/9/27 20:52









 Re:

Awakened, did you have a good look at the "Community Guiding Principles" before you posted this? You fabricated a gruesome scenario and then tell us what to do and not to do but you didn't use any scriptures for your support (in your first post)
I find several comments on this thread inappropriate, eg "Lol, I am pretty sure that Jesus never said anything on the topic..." Why use Lol, why laugh out loud ? Imo this is definitely not something to laugh about !

I'm a bit surprised why the moderators haven't stepped in and maybe even locked the thread.
To clarify, I think it is ok to discuss if we are allowed to use force and defend ourselves and to disagree on the topic as long as we all use scripture to support what we believe and maybe examples from Church History etc. But we should do it decently.

“May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering” (Moravian Missions movement.)

Blessings! Markus

 2014/9/28 1:05
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 244
NSW Australia

 Re:

I'am with Markus, reading words like "Grab your gun, aim and fire" coming from a "Christian" shows how deceived some people are. And how could you possibly pray for people if you consider them "vermin"?? To me it smells of the same spirit that is within those carrying black flags and killing supposedly in the name of God. Or like the average bloke I meet in the street that could not care less about their eternal soul.

And I am speak from experience, one of the towns that I do street evangelizing in has a growing population of muslims in it. And about three months ago one came up to me and told me not to pollute the people with the name of Jesus, or he will cut off my head. I could tell by what was looking out of his eyes, that he was fair dinkum. I had three choices to make 1. shrink away in fear 2. become violent myself or 3. tell him that Jesus has saved my soul and therefore I am not afraid of death and will keep telling people about Jesus. I chose the third!

Let me just say this in love. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing! This message is not just Jesus on the cross that is foolishness, but you! If you want to be saved you must deny yourselves and take up your cross and follow Jesus. Where are you going with your cross? If not to death you will be disqualified from a crown that is given by the Master.

Time is short,and if your faith is in Father, Son and automatic weapon, you will falter when hard times descend upon the Earth. For when the man of lawlessness is revealed he he will be given power to make war with the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7). And if anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people (Revelation 13:10).

In Love Steve


_________________
Steve

 2014/9/28 2:25Profile









 Re:

This is an actual news event that happened yesterday in America. It's all over the news on every chanel and every newspaper and website!!! My post was written because now we have a "real life" situation in our own back yard where we can all agree to praise the Lord that at least one innocent life was saved by the use of force. Well at least I thought so. Silly me:) The quick thinking manager of Vaughans Food Plant used force to stop a murderer...that is AWESOME!!! Right? Praise the Lord...right? So why is that so offensive to some christians? It almost seems as if some people are more grieved by the use of a gun to stop a murder than by the actual grotesque murder itself??!

What is happening to us christians, have we gone completely nuts? Are we not able to feel anymore and have compassion? Can we not just simply use common sense and agree with what is obviously the right thing to do? I just wonder if some christians here who object to the manager using a gun, if they worked at that same factory, what they would have done in the aftermath? As the manager was being tearfully hugged and thanked by EVERYONE else for his brave and selfless actions, what would you be doing? This is not a fabricated scenario, this actually happened...yesterday! But would you be that one sulking employee giving the manager the stink eye for offending your high minded theology? I seriously wonder about that:)

Anyway, I am done here I think. If nothing else has come out of being a part of this forum I have LEARNED A LOT about my fellow christians and their varied and interesting views about everything. We certainly are a strange group of people us christians. Unable to agree on anything, eager to argue over everything and constantly straining at gnats and swallowing camels!

 2014/9/28 2:31
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greeting mark

I told you in my post I do not judge the man who shot the attacker its not my place to. I pray for him as I would anyone Who had been through such terrible things.

My issue was never with what this other man did, that is between him and GOD. My difficulty was with the words you chose to use. When you said the correct way to respond was with a gun and then you said JESUS would take up the gun and do whatever it takes....I wonder how does the JESUS you described sound different from the violent spirit in some other religions? what might someone who is not saved, who is seeking come to think of JESUS after reading this post of yours? I ask these things because I am learning that our words do matter. Brother you don't have to answer my questions I just pray you will consider some of these things as I have and am praying about what you have shared.

One thing that came to my mind this morning was JESUS response
As HE was dying on the cross, HE said forgive them for they know not what they do....its interesting the kind of love that was demonstrated that day. There was JESUS suffering in agonizing pain, dying and with some of HIS last breath HE was concerned about their souls and their eternity...

God bless and keep you
Maryjane

 2014/9/28 7:37Profile









 Re:

so now it is being suggested that I am comparing my Lord and savior to the murderous violent spirit of radical Islam??? Seriously? Wow. That's not what I am saying at all. I believe that Jesus would have used whatever means He had available to save people's lives. A whip, a stick a gun...anything. I do not believe He would have as a compassionate human stood there and just watched someone being murderd. Or just allowed it to happen and said "God bless you for being a martyr". And I never mentioned killing anyone did I? And neither am I now!!! The manger did not kill the attacker either, just stopped him.

My belief stands that if Jesus was confronted with a crisis of "theology" He would not strain at a gnat and swallow a camel...THATS WHAT I AM SAYING!!! Those who have an ear to hear; will hear this.

He would have pulled His donkey out of the ditch on the sabbath just as He healed the sick on the sabbath. He disturbed the peace and caused an uproar with a whip and upturned tables and so I see this same man defending the innocent as that manager did, if He had split second to decide.

If you are honest will stop misrepresenting what I am saying in this thread and stop calling what this manager did "violent" but see it for what it really is, a loving and compassionate act to save an innocent life. Let's not be like the Pharisees who got upset when their religious ideals were broken to save lives and help others who could not help themselves.

 2014/9/28 10:22





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