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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?

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 Re:

Brother,

I am certainly not speaking over you. If you reply to a brothers post and say that you are againtst repudiation of all leadership, at the very best, you are trying to imply, and of course you have already made that charge to me privately, that I am against all leadership. This is simply a false implication on this thread. As you know, I have told you privately when you have charged me with that, that this is simply not correct. You must take me at my word brother or show, by my actions, how my word is not true.

You do not encourage saints who are out of churches by accusing them of repudiating all leadership, this in fact only adds condemnation to those who have struggled mightily with their position. That is why I asked for your own example of who you submit to locally? If you do not or have found it impossible to find such leadership, then this should increase your passion for like-minded brothers and sisters across the globe. Let us truly encourage the saints that God has called out.

This was a simple enough thread with a simple enough question. It was a good question. If there was good Godly leadership in churches across America and the globe, people would not be leaving in droves because of worldliness and false teaching. The article you just put up by brother Steve. Steve writes in that article...........

"Beloved, you and I are witnessing the same events going on around us. I am convinced that we are in the beginning stages of the great falling away right now. The question is whether we have the power of observation to see these end time prophecies unfolding. Considering the “world of distortion” in which we live, perhaps an even greater question we should ask ourselves is if we really do have a “love of the truth so as to be saved.”

Indeed. Lovers of the truth more than lovers of convention or institution. When the world falls away, shall we fall away with it? Or, shall we stand, even if we have to stand alone?...............bro Frank

 2014/9/29 16:57
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 Re:

Quote:
You do not encourage saints who are out of churches by accusing them of repudiating all leadership, this in fact only adds condemnation to those who have struggled mightily with their position. That is why I asked for your own example of who you submit to locally? If you do not or have found it impossible to find such leadership, then this should increase your passion for like-minded brothers and sisters across the globe. Let us truly encourage the saints that God has called out.



Brother, I was sharing my thoughts on the remnant as others were in this thread. The inference was that Jesus is Pastor and therefore that is sufficient, therefore that is a repudiation of hierarchal leadership of any kind except the Lord Himself. I just do not see that as healthy, it happens in smaller settings but is not the path of the Church how it functions in the New Testament.

Towards standing alone, I will say God by His grace could allow a brother to stand alone but really in the end we need each other and also to submit to others in the body of Christ. Self-deception is something NONE of us are prone to brother myself greatly included.

We have been gladly submitting to Eldership of 2 brethren at a Mennonite fellowship we have been attending.

I have talked with you as a brother and a friend on this issue privately in response to the writings on your blog on this tenor.

I am simply offering my view and balance to the thread.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/9/29 18:19Profile









 Re: What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?

Dear brother Neil,
What a great thread, thank you so much for starting this!!!

What would it look like? I think that everything you have written so far and especially what you have posted from Frank Bartleman is 100% spot on...my spirit is soaring with yours!!! What you have been writing and intimating is what I also agree it would look like.

What it would probably not look like is openly arguing, that would be done privately...but as Kermit the Frog says, "but that's none of my business" :))

I too long for the truth and I long for a pure expression of the body of Christ. I don't cast the blame on anyone else for this though, but on me. How can I point the finger at leaders or others in the church when I am a part of the church myself? I must not become sick and tired of the church before I am sick and tired of me. A recurring theme on my facebook page for the past several weeks has been that I want, no...NEED a fresh baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire.

In the past I have been involved in spirited discussions over the meaning and application of the references to the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts. I was really trying hard to get my theology right particularly when it came to the squirly passages where it is vague as to what is really happening to the believers. Were they being born again or were they having a secondary "encounter" or infilling with the Holy Spirit, subsequent to them previously getting born again??? But you know what, by the time it was all over I was no less clear about any of it, but more importantly I was no more filled with the Holy Spirit!!!

So, where I am at right now is that I am done with the debate, the bible study and the back and forth over the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Because the HOLY SPIRIT is not a doctrine but a PERSON!!!

I have no desire to enter the fray about cessationism vs continuationism. I just want the HIM-ism. I just want to be filled with Him...with the Holy Spirit. I don't want to just keep reading about the early church and the experience of others in church history...for the rest of my life...I want Him to fill and take over my own life as well!!!

And I am pretty certain that the fulfillment of this precious promise of God for me is not going to become any more of a reality by me continuing to study and go over and over these truths, ad infinitum. I am done with the searching out of words on paper, I want to search out His heart and fall "heart first" into His glorious fire and be absolutely consumed with Him, not just His words. This is the road that I am on...right now...and I ask that you all pray for me as I will for you!

Thank you for listening to my long ramblings, I am with you brother, all the way and if I was able to I would dog sled out to your place and help you chop that firewood!!!

 2014/9/29 18:29
noone
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 Re:

Absolutely love Bartleman's testimony!


IMO and I might get lambasted for it is this: Why do we put "Church" History on such a pedestal it has turned into an idol.

Why would we want to set it as our example? The first "church" only truly lasted for what...one century maybe.... then it totally took the road of a man made system.

Once again, there were mercy drops within in it, but it has mainly been a dead system.

Until we take our eyes off of history & man and consider our ways and solely plant them on Jesus we will never see John 14:12 or Haggai 2:9 or John 17.

Jesus only


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Tina

 2014/9/29 19:16Profile
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Quote:
Why would we want to set it as our example? The first "church" only truly lasted for what...one century maybe.... then it totally took the road of a man made system.

Once again, there were mercy drops within in it, but it has mainly been a dead system.



I am just curious brother how you come to that conclusion? How many churches have you visited? How many have you read in Church History?

It is no question the Catholic system during the dark ages caused little light to shine for the Gospel in the world. Yet the 2000 years of the Church is replete with examples of many movements of God that were healthy.

Is there any christian group that is "right" or are "all" wrong?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/9/29 19:23Profile









 Re:

Noone writes..........

"Until we take our eyes off of history & man and consider our ways and solely plant them on Jesus we will never see John 14:12 or Haggai 2:9 or John 17.Jesus only"

Amen...........bro Frank

 2014/9/29 19:38
InTheLight
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 Re:

Quote:
Why do we put "Church" History on such a pedestal it has turned into an idol.



Brother, I think the reference to idolatry is inappropriate and out of proportion for what has been shared in this thread. I am reminded of the Scripture;

Walk about Zion, and go round about her: tell the towers thereof. Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following. For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death. (Psalms 48:12-14)

Now certainly Zion's towers, bulwarks, and palaces all primarily have reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious works of deliverance but I believe that all the saints down the ages were made kings and priests unto God and have a place and a name there. Therefore it is not idolatry to mark them well and tell of them to future generations so that their hearts may be stirred to seek God as saints of old have.


In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2014/9/29 20:32Profile









 and my dear brother Greg

and right back, I amen, and say with a pure loving heart, May God bless you and your growing clan RICHLY, and proclaim my love in Messiah Jesus for you, intensely and with passion. even though its over fiber optic cables, we practically GREW UP together in these last 12 years, all the things we been thru in this Most Holy Faith.

This website is in incredible thing in Jesus....its global, "crusader" who gave me his hand in love is from Australia...this website for all these years NEVER went "off the rails" into apostasy or whatever weirdness there is, springing off the Body. Thank God.

But hear me, O beloved brother...time IS SHORT, a storm is coming, and these babylonians have a "kill switch" for the internet...so if we make the break from the "IC", time is of the essence.

I have already made the break in my heart. Oh yes, I will go to IC churches around here, when the LORD commands, with NO pre-judgement....but its always the same pro forma, by the numbers denominational IC....and when I get the Leading ,,,that ...maybe the pastor is just stuck, I write him a very sweet letter, asking if he could see his way to instituting a ONCE a week intercessory prayer meeting.

to date, I have not received a reply from any of them.

my county has only 20,000 souls, all the surrounding counties, similar size....I pray to God, please send me or let me meet 2 to 5 souls...maybe i'm not praying hard enough. Anyone who reads this , is in SW Wis, the LORD leads you, lets get in touch.

Brother Greg, what i'm trying to say is this, you have labored and NOW, you have an intense Holy Ghost bully pulpit at your disposal....time is short, my dear brother, pray on this....I implore thee....I have much more to say, but I want to read what you and our beloved Frank said.

Saints! I implore all who read this, wait on the LORD, seek Him, and see if He imparts the same urgency I feel, that time is short, and we must come out of the babylon we find ourselves in.

remember, Our Lord Jesus was born in a manger, not in the coffee/"fellowship" room of a megachurch.

in Jesus love, neil

 2014/9/29 20:39
noone
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 Re:

Well, the order in my life has been: southern baptist, baptist/pentecostal, non-denomination, pentecostal, non-denomination and now out of church.

I am definitely not a scholar on church history but I have read my fair share of writings on the subject.

There is no doubt that God in His infinite mercy and grace has moved upon people within the system, He has blessed people with truth within the system, He has revealed His son Jesus to people within the system. There are many people within the system today that love Jesus...no doubt. It is the people that are "right" not the "group" or the "building" or the "denomination" or the "corporation."

The protestant system is not much different than the catholic system they are both man centered.

But the clincher is the system is not the BEST. It is not the Most Holy place! it is settling for the outer court and possibly the holy place. It is the very thing that is keeping God's people from His BEST-The Most Holy place. The very thing that is keeping people as babes in Christ, it is keeping people from truly hearing and moving in the Spirit, it is keeping people dependent upon a man to digest God's word then regurgitate it back to them on Sunday. It is the very thing that keeps the body separated and at odds with each other or in competition with each other. The system is living with one foot in the OT and one foot in the NT.

In my "church" experience most people have no idea what or why they believe about Jesus, but they sure know what their denomination stands for. The system puts grand expectations on a man to perform day in and day out... that normally leads to burn out or a high sense of self importance. When a "church" is known for their pastor or any other leader then it is probably man centered.

Can there ever be a "group" that is right? I have no idea, but there can be individual people that are truly desiring to be formed into Christ's body that at some point come together with other individuals with the same mind set and heart cry and for a season they are functioning in complete oneness and being led of the Spirit only. But just as Bartleman said when an individual decides to form a "group" slap a label on it, give it a name, incorporate, take credit or whatever else it will be doomed. It appears that Jesus shares credit with no one.

As I said earlier I have no idea what to tell someone what the body looks like or give them guidelines other than loving Jesus more than myself and loving others. The narrow way into the Most Holy Place is... well... small and narrow.

There are believers everywhere I fully believe this, probably in some of the strangest places. I would never tell someone to leave their church or do something different those decisions must be spirit led and God Breathed.


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Tina

 2014/9/29 21:12Profile
noone
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 Re:

Ron, I wasn't necessarily saying the people on this forum are turning it into an idol, I am saying that it can become an idol when we put more importance on "church" history or a certain man than we do on Jesus and being Spirit led.

You are so right in that God has ordained certain people throughout history to leave their mark on it. I have gained much knowledge from other believers and love to hear the stories, but I cannot re-live their stories or experiences or base my life off of theirs. I must let the Spirit lead me into all truth and it may not look anything like the past history that we know as "church" history. To know Jesus only.


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Tina

 2014/9/29 21:26Profile





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